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Ok great, and what ? I spent 25 years in the industry and a dozen as a manager and I can tell you that straight up racism against black and latino people has b

Ok great, and what ? I spent 25 years in the industry and a dozen as a manager and I can tell you that straight up racism against black and latino people has been coddled and tolerated for a long time. The solution isn't to say: we won't hire white people, but it is to say, we have to create teams that are heterogeneous (and doing what that takes). Your personal anecdotes are not what makes up racism, writ large. And the fact that this has to be explained is, you know, the thing.

winrid 1y ago
You said that my personal anecdotes don't matter while bringing up your personal anecdotes. I've personally never seen racism against Latinos or blacks during hiring. Probably the the most diverse place I worked at had no such quotas. My point is there shouldn't be hiring quotas by race.
- notsayinmch 1y ago
  [flagged]
- mmooss 1y ago
  > I've personally never seen racism against Latinos or blacks during hiring. There are mountains of research and witnesses. What does your statement mean? Also, maybe you weren't aware of how they made their hiring choice? People don't usually openly say they are doing it for racist reasons. > My point is there shouldn't be hiring quotas by race. I don't think DEI is implemented by quotas usually, nor is racism. For example, I had a recruiter I relied on heavily. I realized that they only sent me white guys to interview (with one exception). I have no idea why, but I know the recruiter found people through their own networks, and I bet those networks - usually formed from people we've gone to school with, worked with, socialized with, family, etc. - was white people, and that's who is added to the network. It's self-perpetuating - white people know white people. IIRC, AirBnB's founder knew someone at YC via their MIT fraternity - what do you think they probably looked like (I'm not criticizing AirBnB founders at all - they did amazing; for all I know they are big proponents of DEI)? (There are so many white people - ~60% of the population or ~200 million in the US - that you can spend your entire life without knowing anyone else.) And look around the office of your IT organization; if someone was black, what is the chance that they'd know someone who would help them get a job there? One method of DEI in hiring is to require that a person from a minority is interviewed for every position (in IT, that includes women). By me requiring that, my recruiter was required to develop networks that included many minorities, and I hope those people - now in the network - got opportunities for other jobs too.
- aorloff 1y ago
  Some places might not need quotas. But if you have never seen racism against Latinos or blacks during hiring it is your eyesight that needs checking, my friend.
eweise 1y ago
I've spent at least that much time in the industry and never witnessed such discrimination.
- mmooss 1y ago
  The evidence is well-documented and overwhelming, as are the witnesses to it, news stories, etc.. Are you saying it's all false? Maybe you didn't know what you were seeing? People don't often openly say, 'I'm not hiring them because they are black'. They don't necessarily think it; they think, 'I'm not as comfortable with this person' and 'I don't know how they'll fit into our team', without even realizing why. DEI trains people to be aware of those feeling and thoughts and double-check them. Most people don't want to make decisions in that way and appreciate the training.
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    > DEI trains people to be aware of those feeling and thoughts and double-check them. Most people don't want to make decisions in that way and appreciate the training. Exactly this. It's all about awareness. IMO companies that enforce quotas are not really trying to fix the problem but just forcing the numbers to look good. Because quotas are not solving the mindset that causes this. It's a quick fix. Trainings and workshops are hard work but they actually improve people's self-awareness over time.
  - eweise 1y ago
    I didn't say its all false but I also noticed that you didn't post a single link to the overwhelming and well-documented evidence. Since most of the people I work with are Indian, I guess you're suggesting that Indians are racists against hispanics and blacks. I don't know why that would be but I guess from you said, its well documented.
    - aorloff 1y ago
      Ask yourself what "fit" means to a team. When someone says that someone will or won't "fit with the team" what do they mean ?
jazzyjackson 1y ago
Problem is if the talent pool is not heterogenous, for a litany of historical reasons, a hiring manager becomes tasked with waiting around for a candidate that meets a race quota, which one might consider exactly as racist as maintaining a race status quo.
- shakna 1y ago
  Thankfully "race quotas" are not the only DEI hiring practice. Things like removing names from CVs are fairly effective at fighting bias.
  - winrid 1y ago
    I'm perfectly fine with that.
- acdha 1y ago
  I haven’t seen DEI programs which set “race quotas”. It was things like making sure they did outreach to wider groups, had job requirements which matched the work, and made efforts to avoid nebulous “culture fit” judgements which tended to cut against people who weren’t like the existing employees (this often benefits even white guys if, for example, it avoids age discrimination or lower ratings for someone who goes home to their family after work instead of grabbing beers with the other 20-something single people).
  - RHSeeger 1y ago
    Honestly, it feels like you're not looking, then. Because most DEI programs push to have a balance of minorities in employees. And, if the available pool consists of mainly the majority, that means you need to negatively impact an individual from the majority to hire the individual from a minority. However, it is best for society to do this. Because it is best for society if all groups are starting from the same point; and that means we need to give a leg up to the groups that are currently being pushed down by the system.
    - 1y ago
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

winrid 1y ago

You said that my personal anecdotes don't matter while bringing up your personal anecdotes. I've personally never seen racism against Latinos or blacks during hiring. Probably the the most diverse place I worked at had no such quotas. My point is there shouldn't be hiring quotas by race.

notsayinmch 1y ago
[flagged]
mmooss 1y ago
> I've personally never seen racism against Latinos or blacks during hiring. There are mountains of research and witnesses. What does your statement mean? Also, maybe you weren't aware of how they made their hiring choice? People don't usually openly say they are doing it for racist reasons. > My point is there shouldn't be hiring quotas by race. I don't think DEI is implemented by quotas usually, nor is racism. For example, I had a recruiter I relied on heavily. I realized that they only sent me white guys to interview (with one exception). I have no idea why, but I know the recruiter found people through their own networks, and I bet those networks - usually formed from people we've gone to school with, worked with, socialized with, family, etc. - was white people, and that's who is added to the network. It's self-perpetuating - white people know white people. IIRC, AirBnB's founder knew someone at YC via their MIT fraternity - what do you think they probably looked like (I'm not criticizing AirBnB founders at all - they did amazing; for all I know they are big proponents of DEI)? (There are so many white people - ~60% of the population or ~200 million in the US - that you can spend your entire life without knowing anyone else.) And look around the office of your IT organization; if someone was black, what is the chance that they'd know someone who would help them get a job there? One method of DEI in hiring is to require that a person from a minority is interviewed for every position (in IT, that includes women). By me requiring that, my recruiter was required to develop networks that included many minorities, and I hope those people - now in the network - got opportunities for other jobs too.
aorloff 1y ago
Some places might not need quotas. But if you have never seen racism against Latinos or blacks during hiring it is your eyesight that needs checking, my friend.

eweise 1y ago

I've spent at least that much time in the industry and never witnessed such discrimination.

mmooss 1y ago
The evidence is well-documented and overwhelming, as are the witnesses to it, news stories, etc.. Are you saying it's all false? Maybe you didn't know what you were seeing? People don't often openly say, 'I'm not hiring them because they are black'. They don't necessarily think it; they think, 'I'm not as comfortable with this person' and 'I don't know how they'll fit into our team', without even realizing why. DEI trains people to be aware of those feeling and thoughts and double-check them. Most people don't want to make decisions in that way and appreciate the training.
- wkat4242 1y ago
  > DEI trains people to be aware of those feeling and thoughts and double-check them. Most people don't want to make decisions in that way and appreciate the training. Exactly this. It's all about awareness. IMO companies that enforce quotas are not really trying to fix the problem but just forcing the numbers to look good. Because quotas are not solving the mindset that causes this. It's a quick fix. Trainings and workshops are hard work but they actually improve people's self-awareness over time.
- eweise 1y ago
  I didn't say its all false but I also noticed that you didn't post a single link to the overwhelming and well-documented evidence. Since most of the people I work with are Indian, I guess you're suggesting that Indians are racists against hispanics and blacks. I don't know why that would be but I guess from you said, its well documented.
  - aorloff 1y ago
    Ask yourself what "fit" means to a team. When someone says that someone will or won't "fit with the team" what do they mean ?

jazzyjackson 1y ago

Problem is if the talent pool is not heterogenous, for a litany of historical reasons, a hiring manager becomes tasked with waiting around for a candidate that meets a race quota, which one might consider exactly as racist as maintaining a race status quo.

shakna 1y ago
Thankfully "race quotas" are not the only DEI hiring practice. Things like removing names from CVs are fairly effective at fighting bias.
- winrid 1y ago
  I'm perfectly fine with that.
acdha 1y ago
I haven’t seen DEI programs which set “race quotas”. It was things like making sure they did outreach to wider groups, had job requirements which matched the work, and made efforts to avoid nebulous “culture fit” judgements which tended to cut against people who weren’t like the existing employees (this often benefits even white guys if, for example, it avoids age discrimination or lower ratings for someone who goes home to their family after work instead of grabbing beers with the other 20-something single people).
- RHSeeger 1y ago
  Honestly, it feels like you're not looking, then. Because most DEI programs push to have a balance of minorities in employees. And, if the available pool consists of mainly the majority, that means you need to negatively impact an individual from the majority to hire the individual from a minority. However, it is best for society to do this. Because it is best for society if all groups are starting from the same point; and that means we need to give a leg up to the groups that are currently being pushed down by the system.
  - 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]