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Your comment that you can do Linux things on Linux missed the point entirely. Where is the reverse WSL on Linux, where Windows is deeply embedded and you have

Your comment that you can do Linux things on Linux missed the point entirely. Where is the reverse WSL on Linux, where Windows is deeply embedded and you have all the Windows features in your hands? You can use Wine/Crosseover, which is cool, but even now the number of software products it supports is tiny. Steam has a lot of games. You can run a virtual machine with Windows on it. That is identical to what you can do on Windows with Linux. WSL2-> is a virtual machine with unique tooling around it that makes it easier to use and integrates well with Windows.

randunel 1y ago
Windows supports Linux because the latter is open source, it's a lot easier than the reverse. Linux, on the other hand, barely supports Windows because the latter is closed, and not just closed, windows issues component updates which specifically check if they run in wine and stop running, being actively hostile to a potential Linux host. The two are not equivalent, nobody in the Linux kernel team is actively sabotaging WSL, whereas Microsoft is actively sabotaging wine.
- tyushk 1y ago
  > whereas Microsoft is actively sabotaging wine Do you have a link to where I can read more about this? My understanding is that Microsoft saw Wine as inconsequential to their business, even offloading the Mono runtime to them [1] when they dropped support for it. [1] https://www.mono-project.com/ https://www.mono-project.com/
  - randunel 1y ago
    > Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. However, the Windows Update online service will block updates to Microsoft applications running in Wine. On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows Registry for the Wine configuration key and would block the Windows Update for any component.[125] As Puoti noted: "It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)
- ElijahLynn 1y ago
  This. Windows needs to open source its operating system. End of story.
  - PaulHoule 1y ago
    Wait long enough and it will happen, the question is just "how long". (Microsoft has open-sourced OS and languages from the 1980s) Some days it seems like Microsoft is more interested in Azure, Copilot and GAME PASS and Windows is an afterthought.
    - bigstrat2003 1y ago
      I would certainly love it if Microsoft stopped trying to sell Windows and just open sourced it. I think Windows is a much more pleasant desktop operating system than Linux, minus all the ads and mandatory bloat Microsoft has put in lately. But if Windows was open source the community could just take that out. I really don't see it happening any time in the next decade at least, though. While Windows might not be Microsoft's biggest focus any more it's still a huge income stream for them. They won't just give that up.
  - ChocolateGod 1y ago
    I doubt it would happen, large projects that aren't open source from the onset and are decades old can have licensed or patented code, Microsoft would have to verify line by line that they can open source it.
  - WorldMaker 1y ago
    Microsoft seems to be taking a outside-in "component at a time" approach to open sourcing Windows. Terminal, Notepad, Paint, Calculator, the new Edit.com replacement, a lot of WSL now, etc. This approach has been fascinating so far, but yeah not "exciting" from "what crazy things can I do with Windows like put it in a toaster" side of things. It would be great to see at least a little bit more "middle-out" from Windows Open Source efforts. A minimal build of the NT Kernel and some core Windows components has been "free as in beer" for a while for hobby projects with small screens if you really want to try a very minimal "toaster build" (there's some interesting RPi out there), but the path to commercialization is rough after that point and the "small screens" thing a bit of a weird line in the sand (though understandable given Microsoft's position of power on the desktop and sort of the tablet but not phone). The NT Kernel is one of the most interesting microkernels left in active use [0], especially given how many processor architectures it has supported over decades and how many it still supports (even the ones that Windows isn't very commercially successful on today). It could be a wealth of power to research and academia if it were open source, even if Microsoft didn't open source any of the Windows Subsystems. It would be academically interesting to see what sort of cool/weird/strange Subsystems people would build if NT were open source. I suppose Microsoft still fears it would be commercially interesting, too. [0] Some offense, I suppose to XNU here. Apple's kernel is often called a microkernel for its roots from the Mach kernel, but it has rebuilt some monoliths on top of that over the years (Wikipedia more kindly calls it a "hybrid kernel"), and Mach itself is still so Unix flavored. NT's "object oriented" approach is rather unique today, with its more VMS heritage, a deeply alternate path from POSIX/Unix/Linux(/BSD).
lproven 1y ago
> Where is the reverse WSL on Linux, where Windows is deeply embedded and you have all the Windows features in your hands? https://github.com/Fmstrat/winapps https://github.com/Fmstrat/winapps Enjoy.
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  I was actually looking for something like this.
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
  Late I am, but this reminded me of someone else here posting about https://usebottles.com https://usebottles.com ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44025837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44025837 ) Seems to be based on very polished https://www.winehq.org https://www.winehq.org , so no full VM, but maybe it's less 'heavy'?
  - lproven 1y ago
    I am experimenting with Bottles for an article right now, as it happens -- but no, it does not seem to me that Bottles is at all comparable to WinApps. WinApps runs the apps on real native Windows in a VM, but integrates their UI with the host OS. WINE does this anyway, and it's an inherent property of WINE because there is no host OS. WINE does some fakery and indirection to make Unix filesystems appear on drive letters and things, but the app is still executing on the host OS, just via a translation layer. Bottles runs the apps on top of WINE, but maintains separate WINE instances for each app and allows different onces to have different auxiliary tools, such as games-compatibility libraries, different versions of WINE, etc.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
      Sigh I knew that. I just posted this in the wider context of running Windows-applications under Linux, no matter which way and how, because at the end of the day that's all that counts. Yah, well. Maybe not, because that WiNE approach could be seen as less ressource intensive, while full-VM feels rather bloated, though more stable. And because it bubbled up instantly, having read about it before, right here on HN, just ...uhhhmmm...hours ago.
alex_smart 1y ago
I preferred WSL to running linux directly even though I had no need for any windows only software. Not having to spend time configuring my computer to make basic things work like suspend/wake on lid down/up, battery life, hardware acceleration for video playback on the browser, display scaling on external monitor and so on was reason enough.
- jraph 1y ago
  All this usually works out of the box now, especially if you pick your hardware accordingly.
  - alex_smart 1y ago
    That was certainly not the case ~2 years ago, the last time I installed linux on a laptop. It also doesn't appear to be the case even now. I searched for laptops available in my country that fit my budget and for each laptop searched "<laptop name> linux reddit" on google and filtered for results <1 year old. Each laptop's reports included some or other bug. https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linux_experience_with_hp_envy_x360_2024/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linu... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/lenovo_ideapad_slim_5_gen_9_amd_8845hs_16_inch/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/leno... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_omnibook_ultra_14_ryzen_ai_9_365_a_short_review/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_o... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audio_not_working_lenovo_yoga_7_pro_intel_ultra_7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audi... The laptop with the best reported linux support seemed to be Thinkpad P14s but even there users reported tweaking some config to get fans to run silently and to make the speakers sound acceptable. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_p14s_first_impressions_and_linux_configs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_...
    - jraph 1y ago
      You are going to find issues for any computer for any OS by looking things up like this. And yeah, it's best to wait a bit for new models, as support is sorted out, if the manufacturer doesn't support Linux itself. Or pick a manufacturer that sells laptops with Linux preinstalled. That makes the comparison with a laptop with Windows preinstalled fair.
rounce 1y ago
> You can use Wine/Crosseover, which is cool, but even now the number of software products it supports is tiny. Steam has a lot of games. This isn't really the case, and hasn't been for some years now, especially since Valve started investing heavily in Wine. The quality of Wine these days is absolutely stunning, to the point that some software runs better under Wine than it does on Win11. Then there's the breadth of support which has has moved the experience from there being a slight chance of something running on Wine, to now it being surprising when something doesn't.
- ThinkBeat 1y ago
  This is really the case and has been for years now. This is a list of software I run or have run and that I keep checking on every 6th month or so. Most of them simply dont work, some have unstable limited features. https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsoft-office-365 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/adobe-creative-cloud https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/adobe-cr... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-painter-2019 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-pa... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-paintshop-pro-2023 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-pa... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/visual-studio-2019 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/visual-s... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsoft-visual-studio-2022-community-edition https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity-designer https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity-photo https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity-publisher https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/snagit13 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/snagit13 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/evernote-6x https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/evernote...

randunel 1y ago

Windows supports Linux because the latter is open source, it's a lot easier than the reverse. Linux, on the other hand, barely supports Windows because the latter is closed, and not just closed, windows issues component updates which specifically check if they run in wine and stop running, being actively hostile to a potential Linux host. The two are not equivalent, nobody in the Linux kernel team is actively sabotaging WSL, whereas Microsoft is actively sabotaging wine.

tyushk 1y ago
> whereas Microsoft is actively sabotaging wine Do you have a link to where I can read more about this? My understanding is that Microsoft saw Wine as inconsequential to their business, even offloading the Mono runtime to them [1] when they dropped support for it. [1] https://www.mono-project.com/ https://www.mono-project.com/
- randunel 1y ago
  > Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. However, the Windows Update online service will block updates to Microsoft applications running in Wine. On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows Registry for the Wine configuration key and would block the Windows Update for any component.[125] As Puoti noted: "It's also the first time Microsoft acknowledges the existence of Wine." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)
ElijahLynn 1y ago
This. Windows needs to open source its operating system. End of story.
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  Wait long enough and it will happen, the question is just "how long". (Microsoft has open-sourced OS and languages from the 1980s) Some days it seems like Microsoft is more interested in Azure, Copilot and GAME PASS and Windows is an afterthought.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    I would certainly love it if Microsoft stopped trying to sell Windows and just open sourced it. I think Windows is a much more pleasant desktop operating system than Linux, minus all the ads and mandatory bloat Microsoft has put in lately. But if Windows was open source the community could just take that out. I really don't see it happening any time in the next decade at least, though. While Windows might not be Microsoft's biggest focus any more it's still a huge income stream for them. They won't just give that up.
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  I doubt it would happen, large projects that aren't open source from the onset and are decades old can have licensed or patented code, Microsoft would have to verify line by line that they can open source it.
- WorldMaker 1y ago
  Microsoft seems to be taking a outside-in "component at a time" approach to open sourcing Windows. Terminal, Notepad, Paint, Calculator, the new Edit.com replacement, a lot of WSL now, etc. This approach has been fascinating so far, but yeah not "exciting" from "what crazy things can I do with Windows like put it in a toaster" side of things. It would be great to see at least a little bit more "middle-out" from Windows Open Source efforts. A minimal build of the NT Kernel and some core Windows components has been "free as in beer" for a while for hobby projects with small screens if you really want to try a very minimal "toaster build" (there's some interesting RPi out there), but the path to commercialization is rough after that point and the "small screens" thing a bit of a weird line in the sand (though understandable given Microsoft's position of power on the desktop and sort of the tablet but not phone). The NT Kernel is one of the most interesting microkernels left in active use [0], especially given how many processor architectures it has supported over decades and how many it still supports (even the ones that Windows isn't very commercially successful on today). It could be a wealth of power to research and academia if it were open source, even if Microsoft didn't open source any of the Windows Subsystems. It would be academically interesting to see what sort of cool/weird/strange Subsystems people would build if NT were open source. I suppose Microsoft still fears it would be commercially interesting, too. [0] Some offense, I suppose to XNU here. Apple's kernel is often called a microkernel for its roots from the Mach kernel, but it has rebuilt some monoliths on top of that over the years (Wikipedia more kindly calls it a "hybrid kernel"), and Mach itself is still so Unix flavored. NT's "object oriented" approach is rather unique today, with its more VMS heritage, a deeply alternate path from POSIX/Unix/Linux(/BSD).

lproven 1y ago

> Where is the reverse WSL on Linux, where Windows is deeply embedded and you have all the Windows features in your hands? https://github.com/Fmstrat/winapps https://github.com/Fmstrat/winapps Enjoy.

ChocolateGod 1y ago
I was actually looking for something like this.
LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
Late I am, but this reminded me of someone else here posting about https://usebottles.com https://usebottles.com ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44025837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44025837 ) Seems to be based on very polished https://www.winehq.org https://www.winehq.org , so no full VM, but maybe it's less 'heavy'?
- lproven 1y ago
  I am experimenting with Bottles for an article right now, as it happens -- but no, it does not seem to me that Bottles is at all comparable to WinApps. WinApps runs the apps on real native Windows in a VM, but integrates their UI with the host OS. WINE does this anyway, and it's an inherent property of WINE because there is no host OS. WINE does some fakery and indirection to make Unix filesystems appear on drive letters and things, but the app is still executing on the host OS, just via a translation layer. Bottles runs the apps on top of WINE, but maintains separate WINE instances for each app and allows different onces to have different auxiliary tools, such as games-compatibility libraries, different versions of WINE, etc.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
    Sigh I knew that. I just posted this in the wider context of running Windows-applications under Linux, no matter which way and how, because at the end of the day that's all that counts. Yah, well. Maybe not, because that WiNE approach could be seen as less ressource intensive, while full-VM feels rather bloated, though more stable. And because it bubbled up instantly, having read about it before, right here on HN, just ...uhhhmmm...hours ago.

alex_smart 1y ago

I preferred WSL to running linux directly even though I had no need for any windows only software. Not having to spend time configuring my computer to make basic things work like suspend/wake on lid down/up, battery life, hardware acceleration for video playback on the browser, display scaling on external monitor and so on was reason enough.

jraph 1y ago
All this usually works out of the box now, especially if you pick your hardware accordingly.
- alex_smart 1y ago
  That was certainly not the case ~2 years ago, the last time I installed linux on a laptop. It also doesn't appear to be the case even now. I searched for laptops available in my country that fit my budget and for each laptop searched "<laptop name> linux reddit" on google and filtered for results <1 year old. Each laptop's reports included some or other bug. https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linux_experience_with_hp_envy_x360_2024/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1hfqptw/linu... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/lenovo_ideapad_slim_5_gen_9_amd_8845hs_16_inch/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1esntt3/leno... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_omnibook_ultra_14_ryzen_ai_9_365_a_short_review/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1j3983j/hp_o... https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audio_not_working_lenovo_yoga_7_pro_intel_ultra_7/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/1k1nsm8/audi... The laptop with the best reported linux support seemed to be Thinkpad P14s but even there users reported tweaking some config to get fans to run silently and to make the speakers sound acceptable. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_p14s_first_impressions_and_linux_configs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1c81rw4/thinkpad_...
  - jraph 1y ago
    You are going to find issues for any computer for any OS by looking things up like this. And yeah, it's best to wait a bit for new models, as support is sorted out, if the manufacturer doesn't support Linux itself. Or pick a manufacturer that sells laptops with Linux preinstalled. That makes the comparison with a laptop with Windows preinstalled fair.

rounce 1y ago

> You can use Wine/Crosseover, which is cool, but even now the number of software products it supports is tiny. Steam has a lot of games. This isn't really the case, and hasn't been for some years now, especially since Valve started investing heavily in Wine. The quality of Wine these days is absolutely stunning, to the point that some software runs better under Wine than it does on Win11. Then there's the breadth of support which has has moved the experience from there being a slight chance of something running on Wine, to now it being surprising when something doesn't.

ThinkBeat 1y ago
This is really the case and has been for years now. This is a list of software I run or have run and that I keep checking on every 6th month or so. Most of them simply dont work, some have unstable limited features. https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsoft-office-365 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/adobe-creative-cloud https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/adobe-cr... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-painter-2019 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-pa... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-paintshop-pro-2023 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/corel-pa... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/visual-studio-2019 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/visual-s... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsoft-visual-studio-2022-community-edition https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/microsof... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity-designer https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity-photo https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity-publisher https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/affinity... https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/snagit13 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/snagit13 https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/evernote-6x https://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/crossover/evernote...