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Good article but as a heavy user of Obsidian (and previously Evernote), I would offer some counterpoints: > After some mental gymnastics weighing if I should c

Good article but as a heavy user of Obsidian (and previously Evernote), I would offer some counterpoints: > After some mental gymnastics weighing if I should continue with Obsidian, I found solace when asking myself "Can I see myself using this in 20 years?". I couldn't. The thought of cyclically migrating notes from one PKMS to another every 5 years, as I had done from Evernote to Notion to Obsidian, made me feel tired. In point of fact this is actually an argument IN FAVOR of Obsidian. While the editor might be proprietary - the notes themselves are just standard markdown. If somehow all the copies of Obsidian magically disappeared off the earth tomorrow, I could easily switch over to Emacs org mode, VS Code, or literally anything else. > Obsidian was a great tool for me personally for a long time. But I felt frustrated when I wanted to access my notes on my phone while on-the-go and saw that I had to pay for this feature. Again, a little bit odd considering that the author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS but didn't seem to consider that you can just check your markdown notes into a git repository and sync with the native android/iOS Obsidian app on a mobile device. All my notes sync up to Gitea hosted on my VPS and it works relatively seamlessly. I'm glad the author had fun. Personally, I'm very happy with Obsidian and the plugin architecture has made it easy for me to extend it where necessary.

exe34 1y ago
> The thought of cyclically migrating notes from one PKMS to another every 5 years, as I had done from Evernote to Notion to Obsidian, made me feel tired. I had a very similar thought process about 15 years ago, and went on a quest to write my own notes system - after trying out a lot of ideas and giving up, I washed up in emacs and gave org-mode a try. It's actually good enough, and I can grep through my notes easiy, and sync them with git.
williamsss 1y ago
Thanks for the feedback! Agreed Git can be used to sync your notes. Its a great solution for those comfortable putting their notes into a Git repo like Github. I wasn't comfortable with that however. Currently vetting a way to sync my database files with my markdown files on my laptop, so it functions similar to Obsidian. I enjoy Vim too much to work constrained to Directus' markdown editor!
- e28eta 1y ago
  What about git makes you uncomfortable? I saw that you didn’t want to use a 3rd party provider, but why not stick a git repo on your VPS (which you are trusting with your data today) and use that to coordinate syncs between your client devices?
  - williamsss 1y ago
    Made a comment in the thread explaining this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44023090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44023090 I expect my PKMS to evolve and wouldn't rule out a self-hosted Git server if I find it's a better option long term.
    - tasuki 1y ago
      > wouldn't rule out a self-hosted Git server I don't think you really get it. Git is distributed. There's no need for "a git server". You already have a machine on which you host the SQL database, you can just use that as yet another git remote.
    - e28eta 1y ago
      Thanks for the reply. I do agree with sibling comment from tasuki that I think you’re missing the simpler solution of plain git repos to solve “owning your own data in a future-proof manner”. If you’re not trying to coordinate work among multiple people, and aren’t trying to enforce a single source of truth with code, you don’t _need_ “git server” software. You just need a git repository (folder & file structure) in a location that you consider to be your source of truth. I’m not trying to convince you to change it now, especially if you’re happy with what you have, but I would suggest reading some (or all) of https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 I think the first ~4 subsections of chapter 4 cover what I & tasuki were suggesting could be sufficient for you. If you’re the type of engineer to read through the code of your data storage layer, I think you’d find Chapter 10 (Git Internals) interesting, because it can demystify git. I enjoyed the whole book. As with any engineering project, I see lots of questions about your choices, and I applaud you for sticking around. I would make very different decisions than you, based on your stated priorities, but that’s okay.
caconym_ 1y ago
> In point of fact this is actually an argument IN FAVOR of Obsidian. While the editor might be proprietary - the notes themselves are just standard markdown. If somehow all the copies of Obsidian magically disappeared off the earth tomorrow, I could easily switch over to Emacs org mode, VS Code, or literally anything else. 100% this. The reason I started using Obsidian in the first place is that it's built on the exact directory structure and file formats that I was already using to manage my writing and notes, and if Obsidian goes away for some reason, that won't change.
braden-lk 1y ago
Big obsidian fan, but I will say: notes being “just markdown” is not entirely true depending on how you use obsidian. If you are a plug-in heavy user, and those plugins introduce new syntax and lots of JavaScript functionality, you are accumulating a bespoke custom syntax that only works on your copy of obsidian with your set of plugins. Obsidian and those plugins are still free and are a huge benefit, but just something to keep in mind regarding data hygiene and longevity.
- edanm 1y ago
  True, but the format is still text. In a "catastrophe", you can always just a) ignore these, or b) write custom code to process them (e.g. port the plugin to VSCode or whatever). Still far better than a proprietary format.
  - eviks 1y ago
    A proprietary format with an export function allows you the same inconvenience of having to write code for processing.
    - Xss3 1y ago
      No. You might not be able to load the program to get to the export button. They might paywall it away. Etc.
      - eviks 1y ago
        No, there is no paywall or etc. This is not an imaginary anything goes area, but simple note taking where you have local client with locally synced data which can always export, so this risk doesn't exist
    - edanm 1y ago
      Not true for a variety of reasons: 1. You're relying on the external service to continue providing the export functionality, or else doing regular backups. 2. The format of the exports might be proprietary, so it might be orders of magnitude more difficult to parse. 3. The export might not contain all the data. 4. Even if the export isn't to a proprietary format, it might be to a format that's much harder to parse than Markdown. Markdown is not only a standard, it's fairly readable even without any parsing, as opposed to, say, exporting in HTML. Losing some functionality (often minor, depending on what you use Obsidian for) is better than losing more or all functionality.
scubbo 1y ago
> Again, a little bit odd considering that the author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS but didn't seem to consider that you can just check your markdown notes into a git repository and sync with the native android/iOS Obsidian app on a mobile device. Even simpler, I have mine in a Dropbox folder. Felt very strange for _this_ to be the straw that broke the camel's back for the author. Nonetheless, very glad for them that they enjoyed and learned from the experience of building a replacement!
- nis251413 1y ago
  Yeah, syncing text files across devices is a problem that has little to do with obsidian or whichever editor/renderer one uses. As long as one keeps things relatively simple with plugin-related syntax flavours, editors are interchangeable.
- pingiun 1y ago
  Even simpler, just pay for the feature
  - 946789987649 1y ago
    Yeah agreed - does anyone really care for $4/month?
- mock-possum 1y ago
  Fun fact: Dropbox doesn’t support emoji in file names ( or at least, didn’t last time I checked. ) Deal breaker for me - adding iconography to file and folder names can be a natural, zesty enterprise.
  - mh- 1y ago
    And here I am still coming to terms with using spaces in filenames.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
wiseowise 1y ago
> Again, a little bit odd considering that the *author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS* I’m pretty sure author just wanted to build PKMS. These types of “oooh, will it be there in 20 years” are standard OCD/procrastination.
microtonal 1y ago
Again, a little bit odd considering that the author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS but didn't seem to consider that you can just check your markdown notes into a git repository and sync with the native android/iOS Obsidian app on a mobile device. Also, Obsidian supports free iCloud sync if you are a Mac and iOS user. I know that's only a subset of users, but a nice option to get Obsidian to sync on the phone if you are in the Apple ecosystem. Also, they have a cheaper Sync plan now that is $4 per month. I can't really be bothered that Sync would cost up to 1000 in ten years. If you use Obsidian daily, it had an immensive value and it's cheaper than most services out there.
- pflenker 1y ago
  To add to your last point - 10 years is a very long time frame. Any recurring cost grows to eye-watering levels if the time interval is huge enough. In 10 years, a lot can happen in the space and you are not locked in with obsidian - if the next better thing comes along in 3 years, you can easily migrate.
- memming 1y ago
  iCloud sync is too unreliable and opaque for me.
  - graeme 1y ago
    Yes I found it wasn't reliable. Perhaps it has improved, but Obsidian Sync has been excellent. I'm happy to support the developer as I'd like Obsidian to stick around.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    It has been reliable for me with Obsidian. I still prefer Obsidian Sync because it has good integrated version history and shared vaults. Also agree with the sibling poster - I like subscribing to support them on a regular basis (and of course Catalyst).
  - themadturk 1y ago
    Obsidian Sync is great (it helps that I got in on early-bird pricing...but it really is reliable). In addition, the Git plugin, coupled with Working Copy on my iPhone and iPad, also work extremely well, with a bit of added overhead. Though iCloud works reasonably well for just about everything else, I haven't used it for syncing Obsidian data.
dominicrose 1y ago
I'm migrating what's in Evernote to Gmail because the "upgrade to premium" popups are too tricky and the value of Evernote just isn't worth the subscription unless you're relying heavily on it, which I can't because of the popups.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
bolognafairy 1y ago
Concerning, maybe. Definitely not surprising. One’s technical ability to do something has, if anything, a negative correlation with their ability to value and manage their own time. The author’s justification is absolutely ridiculous, hands down. I simply pray that they’re never in charge of deploying another human’s time effectively.
meander_water 1y ago
Totally agree, I personally have obsidian set up on multiple devices, and they all automatically sync to my local Synology NAS.
PurpleRamen 1y ago
> In point of fact this is actually an argument IN FAVOR of Obsidian. While the editor might be proprietary - the notes themselves are just standard markdown. If somehow all the copies of Obsidian magically disappeared off the earth tomorrow, I could easily switch over to Emacs org mode, VS Code, or literally anything else. Not really.. This problem runs far deeper than most are willing to see. First, Obsidian is using a personalized flavour of markdown, and seconds, for many heavy features it's leaning strongly on plugins which are prone to break or even die. Obsidian has a vibrant plugin-community, which also seems to die really fast. This becomes even more critical by plugins dying from changes in Obsidian itself. So while Obsidian is in theory a nice open app, it's longevity-aspect is really awful. I already had many features and plugins dying in the last years, and who know how much more will break in the next 20 years. Simply switching to another text-editor will not do, because they won't offer the missing features. So at best, you are just not losing your data, but you still won't have the tooling to use them. Someone creating their own system, where they have full control over everything, even if they will have to sacrifice some benefit in the short run, just makes sense in a bigger picture.
- someguydave 1y ago
  Don’t use plug ins
  - Gerardo1 1y ago
    then you lose a large amount of functionality and value. That's the point they were making.
    - themadturk 1y ago
      You may lost a large amount of functionality and value. If you never become dependent on plugins, as is true of some Obsidian users, you lose nothing. Obsidian has considerable functionality and value right out of the box, at least as much as many other Markdown editors, and costs nothing.
- SamPatt 1y ago
tsurba 1y ago
Just use Joplin, it’s open source and syncing to many cloud providers you already probably have is free.
quxbar 1y ago
I think of the sync paid tier as analogous to a patreon membership, combined with paying someone a tiny amount to manage my data for me. The fact that it's all markdown makes me confident I could take my files and go play elsewhere at any time, but I enjoy knowing my money helps keep Obsidian going.
Falkon1313 1y ago
Yeah, I don't even do that. I just copy the files over if/when I want to. (Do people really not know how to use a basic filesystem to copy files these days?) But mostly I don't. My work notes are on my work laptop and my personal notes are on my PC. I might copy them onto a mobile device if I'm traveling, but I might not bother. Mobile devices don't have the good keyboard and large screen to really be useful for stuff like that. But I have copied them over before just in case I wanted to find something in them.
neop1x 1y ago
There is also LogSeq which is open-source and very similar to Obsidian. I use it with Syncthing to sync notes across devices. I would rather see more effort put there, to improve table management, for example...

exe34 1y ago

> The thought of cyclically migrating notes from one PKMS to another every 5 years, as I had done from Evernote to Notion to Obsidian, made me feel tired. I had a very similar thought process about 15 years ago, and went on a quest to write my own notes system - after trying out a lot of ideas and giving up, I washed up in emacs and gave org-mode a try. It's actually good enough, and I can grep through my notes easiy, and sync them with git.

williamsss 1y ago

Thanks for the feedback! Agreed Git can be used to sync your notes. Its a great solution for those comfortable putting their notes into a Git repo like Github. I wasn't comfortable with that however. Currently vetting a way to sync my database files with my markdown files on my laptop, so it functions similar to Obsidian. I enjoy Vim too much to work constrained to Directus' markdown editor!

e28eta 1y ago
What about git makes you uncomfortable? I saw that you didn’t want to use a 3rd party provider, but why not stick a git repo on your VPS (which you are trusting with your data today) and use that to coordinate syncs between your client devices?
- williamsss 1y ago
  Made a comment in the thread explaining this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44023090 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44023090 I expect my PKMS to evolve and wouldn't rule out a self-hosted Git server if I find it's a better option long term.
  - tasuki 1y ago
    > wouldn't rule out a self-hosted Git server I don't think you really get it. Git is distributed. There's no need for "a git server". You already have a machine on which you host the SQL database, you can just use that as yet another git remote.
  - e28eta 1y ago
    Thanks for the reply. I do agree with sibling comment from tasuki that I think you’re missing the simpler solution of plain git repos to solve “owning your own data in a future-proof manner”. If you’re not trying to coordinate work among multiple people, and aren’t trying to enforce a single source of truth with code, you don’t _need_ “git server” software. You just need a git repository (folder & file structure) in a location that you consider to be your source of truth. I’m not trying to convince you to change it now, especially if you’re happy with what you have, but I would suggest reading some (or all) of https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2 I think the first ~4 subsections of chapter 4 cover what I & tasuki were suggesting could be sufficient for you. If you’re the type of engineer to read through the code of your data storage layer, I think you’d find Chapter 10 (Git Internals) interesting, because it can demystify git. I enjoyed the whole book. As with any engineering project, I see lots of questions about your choices, and I applaud you for sticking around. I would make very different decisions than you, based on your stated priorities, but that’s okay.

caconym_ 1y ago

braden-lk 1y ago

Big obsidian fan, but I will say: notes being “just markdown” is not entirely true depending on how you use obsidian. If you are a plug-in heavy user, and those plugins introduce new syntax and lots of JavaScript functionality, you are accumulating a bespoke custom syntax that only works on your copy of obsidian with your set of plugins. Obsidian and those plugins are still free and are a huge benefit, but just something to keep in mind regarding data hygiene and longevity.

edanm 1y ago
True, but the format is still text. In a "catastrophe", you can always just a) ignore these, or b) write custom code to process them (e.g. port the plugin to VSCode or whatever). Still far better than a proprietary format.
- eviks 1y ago
  A proprietary format with an export function allows you the same inconvenience of having to write code for processing.
  - Xss3 1y ago
    No. You might not be able to load the program to get to the export button. They might paywall it away. Etc.
    - eviks 1y ago
      No, there is no paywall or etc. This is not an imaginary anything goes area, but simple note taking where you have local client with locally synced data which can always export, so this risk doesn't exist
  - edanm 1y ago
    Not true for a variety of reasons: 1. You're relying on the external service to continue providing the export functionality, or else doing regular backups. 2. The format of the exports might be proprietary, so it might be orders of magnitude more difficult to parse. 3. The export might not contain all the data. 4. Even if the export isn't to a proprietary format, it might be to a format that's much harder to parse than Markdown. Markdown is not only a standard, it's fairly readable even without any parsing, as opposed to, say, exporting in HTML. Losing some functionality (often minor, depending on what you use Obsidian for) is better than losing more or all functionality.

scubbo 1y ago

> Again, a little bit odd considering that the author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS but didn't seem to consider that you can just check your markdown notes into a git repository and sync with the native android/iOS Obsidian app on a mobile device. Even simpler, I have mine in a Dropbox folder. Felt very strange for _this_ to be the straw that broke the camel's back for the author. Nonetheless, very glad for them that they enjoyed and learned from the experience of building a replacement!

nis251413 1y ago
Yeah, syncing text files across devices is a problem that has little to do with obsidian or whichever editor/renderer one uses. As long as one keeps things relatively simple with plugin-related syntax flavours, editors are interchangeable.
pingiun 1y ago
Even simpler, just pay for the feature
- 946789987649 1y ago
  Yeah agreed - does anyone really care for $4/month?
mock-possum 1y ago
Fun fact: Dropbox doesn’t support emoji in file names ( or at least, didn’t last time I checked. ) Deal breaker for me - adding iconography to file and folder names can be a natural, zesty enterprise.
- mh- 1y ago
  And here I am still coming to terms with using spaces in filenames.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

wiseowise 1y ago

> Again, a little bit odd considering that the *author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS* I’m pretty sure author just wanted to build PKMS. These types of “oooh, will it be there in 20 years” are standard OCD/procrastination.

microtonal 1y ago

Again, a little bit odd considering that the author is technically savvy enough to write an entire PKMS but didn't seem to consider that you can just check your markdown notes into a git repository and sync with the native android/iOS Obsidian app on a mobile device. Also, Obsidian supports free iCloud sync if you are a Mac and iOS user. I know that's only a subset of users, but a nice option to get Obsidian to sync on the phone if you are in the Apple ecosystem. Also, they have a cheaper Sync plan now that is $4 per month. I can't really be bothered that Sync would cost up to 1000 in ten years. If you use Obsidian daily, it had an immensive value and it's cheaper than most services out there.

pflenker 1y ago
To add to your last point - 10 years is a very long time frame. Any recurring cost grows to eye-watering levels if the time interval is huge enough. In 10 years, a lot can happen in the space and you are not locked in with obsidian - if the next better thing comes along in 3 years, you can easily migrate.
memming 1y ago
iCloud sync is too unreliable and opaque for me.
- graeme 1y ago
  Yes I found it wasn't reliable. Perhaps it has improved, but Obsidian Sync has been excellent. I'm happy to support the developer as I'd like Obsidian to stick around.
- microtonal 1y ago
  It has been reliable for me with Obsidian. I still prefer Obsidian Sync because it has good integrated version history and shared vaults. Also agree with the sibling poster - I like subscribing to support them on a regular basis (and of course Catalyst).
- themadturk 1y ago
  Obsidian Sync is great (it helps that I got in on early-bird pricing...but it really is reliable). In addition, the Git plugin, coupled with Working Copy on my iPhone and iPad, also work extremely well, with a bit of added overhead. Though iCloud works reasonably well for just about everything else, I haven't used it for syncing Obsidian data.

dominicrose 1y ago

I'm migrating what's in Evernote to Gmail because the "upgrade to premium" popups are too tricky and the value of Evernote just isn't worth the subscription unless you're relying heavily on it, which I can't because of the popups.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

bolognafairy 1y ago

Concerning, maybe. Definitely not surprising. One’s technical ability to do something has, if anything, a negative correlation with their ability to value and manage their own time. The author’s justification is absolutely ridiculous, hands down. I simply pray that they’re never in charge of deploying another human’s time effectively.

meander_water 1y ago

Totally agree, I personally have obsidian set up on multiple devices, and they all automatically sync to my local Synology NAS.

PurpleRamen 1y ago

> In point of fact this is actually an argument IN FAVOR of Obsidian. While the editor might be proprietary - the notes themselves are just standard markdown. If somehow all the copies of Obsidian magically disappeared off the earth tomorrow, I could easily switch over to Emacs org mode, VS Code, or literally anything else. Not really.. This problem runs far deeper than most are willing to see. First, Obsidian is using a personalized flavour of markdown, and seconds, for many heavy features it's leaning strongly on plugins which are prone to break or even die. Obsidian has a vibrant plugin-community, which also seems to die really fast. This becomes even more critical by plugins dying from changes in Obsidian itself. So while Obsidian is in theory a nice open app, it's longevity-aspect is really awful. I already had many features and plugins dying in the last years, and who know how much more will break in the next 20 years. Simply switching to another text-editor will not do, because they won't offer the missing features. So at best, you are just not losing your data, but you still won't have the tooling to use them. Someone creating their own system, where they have full control over everything, even if they will have to sacrifice some benefit in the short run, just makes sense in a bigger picture.

someguydave 1y ago
Don’t use plug ins
- Gerardo1 1y ago
  then you lose a large amount of functionality and value. That's the point they were making.
  - themadturk 1y ago
    You may lost a large amount of functionality and value. If you never become dependent on plugins, as is true of some Obsidian users, you lose nothing. Obsidian has considerable functionality and value right out of the box, at least as much as many other Markdown editors, and costs nothing.
SamPatt 1y ago

tsurba 1y ago

Just use Joplin, it’s open source and syncing to many cloud providers you already probably have is free.

quxbar 1y ago

I think of the sync paid tier as analogous to a patreon membership, combined with paying someone a tiny amount to manage my data for me. The fact that it's all markdown makes me confident I could take my files and go play elsewhere at any time, but I enjoy knowing my money helps keep Obsidian going.

Falkon1313 1y ago

Yeah, I don't even do that. I just copy the files over if/when I want to. (Do people really not know how to use a basic filesystem to copy files these days?) But mostly I don't. My work notes are on my work laptop and my personal notes are on my PC. I might copy them onto a mobile device if I'm traveling, but I might not bother. Mobile devices don't have the good keyboard and large screen to really be useful for stuff like that. But I have copied them over before just in case I wanted to find something in them.

neop1x 1y ago

There is also LogSeq which is open-source and very similar to Obsidian. I use it with Syncthing to sync notes across devices. I would rather see more effort put there, to improve table management, for example...