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This is nothing about ARMv9 the ISA but much more about their new CEO Rene Haas. Arm has always been pricing their design on the lower end, bundling GPU and oth

by ksec 1y ago

This is nothing about ARMv9 the ISA but much more about their new CEO Rene Haas. Arm has always been pricing their design on the lower end, bundling GPU and other designs IP. I have long argued since they enter 64bit era their performance profile and profits does not align well especially when comparing to AMD and Intel. Even with the increased pricing the Cortex X5 / X925 and upcoming X6 / X930 they are still pretty good value. Unless Apple has something big with A19 / M5 the X6 / X930 should be competitive with M4 already. I just wish they spend a little more money on R&D for the GPU IP side of things. Hoepfully we have some more news from Nvidia in Computex 2025

ryao 1y ago
AMD and Intel actually fabricate chips for sale to others (outsourced to TSMC in AMD’s case) and take the risks associated with that. ARM on the other hand is just an IP provider. They are not comparable. ARM should have kept its original strategy of aiming to profit from volume that enabled its rise in the first place. Its course change likely looks great to SoftBank’s investors for now, but it will inevitably kill the goose that lays the golden eggs as people look elsewhere for what ARM was. That said, ARM’s increased license fees are a fantastic advocate for RISC-V. Some of the more interesting RISC-V cores are Tenstorrent’s Ascalon and Ventana’s Veyron V2. I am looking forward to them being in competition with ARM’s X925 and X930 designs.
- tails4e 1y ago
  RISC-V is not immune from license fees, unless you want to design a high performance core from the ground up. If you want something as capable as an M4, there is years of R&D to get to that level. I'm sure a big player could do just that in house, but many would license Si-Five or similar. It will be interesting to see if Qualcomm and the like would make a move towards RISC-V, given their ARM legal issues
  - xbmcuser 1y ago
    China will likely be the country taking forward RISC-V and ditching Arm and x86 completely. With USA trying to stop other countries from using latest Chinese tech they are given more reason to ditch any and all propitiatory US tech. So over the next decade I expect RISC-V architecture to enter and flood all Chinese tech devices from Tvs to cars and everything else that needs a CPU. I personally hope China get's competitive in the node size as well as I want gpu and cpus start getting cheaper every generation again as once TSMC got big lead over Intel/Samsung and Nvidia got a big lead over AMD prices have stopped coming down generation to generation for CPU's and GPU's
    - ryao 1y ago
      RISC-V is definitely gaining traction in China, but it does not have a monopoly on Chinese CPU core design: * Loongson is pushing a MIPS derivative forward. * Sugon is pushing a x86 derivative (originally derived from AMD Zen) forward * Zhaoxin is pushing a x86 derivative (derived from VIA’s chips) forward. There was Shenwei with its Alpha processor derivative, but that effort has not had any announcements in years. However, there is still ARM China. Tianjin Phytium and HiSilicon continue to design ARM cores presumably under license from ARM China. There are probably others I missed. There is also substantial RISC-V development outside of China. Some notable ones are: * SiFive - They are the first company to be in this space and are behind many of the early/current designs. * Tenstorrent - This company has Jim Keller and people formerly from Apple’s chip design team and others. They have high performance designs up to 8-wide. * Ventana - They claim to have a high performance core design that is 15-wide. * AheadComputing - they hired Intel’s Oregon design team to design high performance RISC-V cores after the Royal Core project was cancelled last year. * The Raspberry Pi foundation - their RP2350 contains Hazard3 RISC-V cores designed by one of their engineers. * Nvidia - They design RISC-V cores for the microcontrollers in their GPUs, of which the GPU System Processor is the most well known. They ship billions of RISC-V cores each year as part of their GPUs. This is despite using ARM for the high end CPUs that they sell to the community. * Western Digital - Like Nvidia, they design RISC-V cores for use in their products. They are particularly notable because they released the SweRV Core as open source. * Meta - They are making in-house RISC-V based chips for AI training/inference. This is a short list. It would be relatively easy to assemble a list of dozens of companies designing RISC-V cores outside of China if one tried.
  - ryao 1y ago
    There are an incredible number of companies designing their own RISC-V cores right now. Some of them are even are making some of their designs entirely open source so that they are royalty free. The highest end designs are not, but it is hard to imagine their creators not undercutting ARM’s license fees since that is money that they would not have otherwise. As for Qualcomm, they won the lawsuit ARM filed against them. Changing from ARM to RISC-V would delay their ambition to take marketshare from Intel and AMD, so they are likely content to continue paying ARM royalties because they have their eyes on a much bigger prize. It also came out during the lawsuit that Qualcomm considers their in-house design team to be saving them billions of dollars in ARM royalty fees, since they only need to pay royalties for the ISA and nothing else when they use their own in-house designs.
    - fidotron 1y ago
      RISC-V implementations are going to prove to be absolute patent minefields. Just because something is open source will not stop you from being stung during manufacturing, rather like how Android deployments are not free.
      - ryao 1y ago
        So far, patent lawsuits have been more of a problem for those using ARM designs (Qualcomm) than those using RISC-V designs. The Raspberry Pi foundation, Western Digital and Nvidia have successfully put RISC-V designs into their products without any issues. The first two even made their core designs open source (see Hazard3 and SweRV).
        fidotron 1y ago
        How are SiFive going to protect their IP when everyone is free to copy it? Patents.
        ryao 1y ago
        Anyone is free to make a RISC-V CPU without infringing on SiFive’s IP.
  - rollcat 1y ago
    Correct me if I am wrong, but in RISC-V's case, you would be licensing the core design alone, not a license for the ISA plus the core on top. Right now, AFAIK only Apple is serious about designing their own ARM cores, while there are multiple competing implementations for RISC-V (which are still way behind both ARM and x86, but slooowly making their way). VERY long-term, I expect RISC-V to become more competitive, unless whoever-owns-ARM-at-the-time adjusts strategy. Either way, I'm glad to see competition after decades of Intel/x86 dominance.
    - ryao 1y ago
      Qualcomm has a serious development effort in their Oryon CPU cores. Marvel had ThunderX from the Cavium acquisition, but they seem to have discontinued development.
  - solarkraft 1y ago
    Yes, but the playing field is different. Anyone can become a Risc-V IP provider and many such companies have already been created.
- ksec 1y ago
  MediaTek and others using ARMv9 design and pricing, heck even Qualcomm are selling their SoC on Windows PC at cheaper price compared to Intel or AMD. Even at a higher IP price their final product are cheaper, faster and competitive. There may be a strategy about leaving money on the table, but it is another thing about leaving TOO much money on the table. If Intel and AMD's pricing is so far above ARM, there is nothing wrong with increasing your highest performance core 's pricing. I would not be surprised in a 2 - 3 years time the highest PC performance CPU / SoC is coming from Nvidia with ARM CPU Core rather than x86. But knowing Nvidia I know they will charge similar pricing to Intel :D
  - ryao 1y ago
    So far, Qualcomm is not paying the royalty rate hikes since they are selling ARM hardware using cores covered under the ARMv8 architectural license that they obtained before SoftBank started pushing ARM to improve profitability. It is interesting that you should mention MediaTek. They joined the RISC-V Software Ecosystem in May 2023: https://riseproject.dev/ https://riseproject.dev/ It seems reasonable to think that they are considering jumping ship. If they are designing their own in-house CPU cores, it will likely be a while before we see them as part of a mediatek SoC. In any case, people do not like added fees. They had previously tolerated ARM’s fees since they were low, but now that they are raising them, people are interested in alternatives. At least some of ARM’s partners are paying the higher for now, but it is an incentive to move to RISC-V, which is no fee for the ISA and either no fee or low fee for IP cores. For example, the hazard3 cores that the Raspberry Pi Foundation adopted in the RP2350 did not require them to pay royalty fees to anyone.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jasoneckert 1y ago
After watching the Qualcomm-ARM lawsuit in December, I have very little respect for ARM's relentless pursuit of profit for profit's sake: https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-1-opening-statements-and-surprising-revelations/ https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-1... https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-2-is-processor-design-derivative-of-instructing-set-architecture-isa/ https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-2... https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-3-testimonies-end-dispute-funneled-down-to-two-key-questions/ https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-3...

by ksec 1y ago

ryao 1y ago

AMD and Intel actually fabricate chips for sale to others (outsourced to TSMC in AMD’s case) and take the risks associated with that. ARM on the other hand is just an IP provider. They are not comparable. ARM should have kept its original strategy of aiming to profit from volume that enabled its rise in the first place. Its course change likely looks great to SoftBank’s investors for now, but it will inevitably kill the goose that lays the golden eggs as people look elsewhere for what ARM was. That said, ARM’s increased license fees are a fantastic advocate for RISC-V. Some of the more interesting RISC-V cores are Tenstorrent’s Ascalon and Ventana’s Veyron V2. I am looking forward to them being in competition with ARM’s X925 and X930 designs.

tails4e 1y ago
RISC-V is not immune from license fees, unless you want to design a high performance core from the ground up. If you want something as capable as an M4, there is years of R&D to get to that level. I'm sure a big player could do just that in house, but many would license Si-Five or similar. It will be interesting to see if Qualcomm and the like would make a move towards RISC-V, given their ARM legal issues
- xbmcuser 1y ago
  China will likely be the country taking forward RISC-V and ditching Arm and x86 completely. With USA trying to stop other countries from using latest Chinese tech they are given more reason to ditch any and all propitiatory US tech. So over the next decade I expect RISC-V architecture to enter and flood all Chinese tech devices from Tvs to cars and everything else that needs a CPU. I personally hope China get's competitive in the node size as well as I want gpu and cpus start getting cheaper every generation again as once TSMC got big lead over Intel/Samsung and Nvidia got a big lead over AMD prices have stopped coming down generation to generation for CPU's and GPU's
  - ryao 1y ago
    RISC-V is definitely gaining traction in China, but it does not have a monopoly on Chinese CPU core design: * Loongson is pushing a MIPS derivative forward. * Sugon is pushing a x86 derivative (originally derived from AMD Zen) forward * Zhaoxin is pushing a x86 derivative (derived from VIA’s chips) forward. There was Shenwei with its Alpha processor derivative, but that effort has not had any announcements in years. However, there is still ARM China. Tianjin Phytium and HiSilicon continue to design ARM cores presumably under license from ARM China. There are probably others I missed. There is also substantial RISC-V development outside of China. Some notable ones are: * SiFive - They are the first company to be in this space and are behind many of the early/current designs. * Tenstorrent - This company has Jim Keller and people formerly from Apple’s chip design team and others. They have high performance designs up to 8-wide. * Ventana - They claim to have a high performance core design that is 15-wide. * AheadComputing - they hired Intel’s Oregon design team to design high performance RISC-V cores after the Royal Core project was cancelled last year. * The Raspberry Pi foundation - their RP2350 contains Hazard3 RISC-V cores designed by one of their engineers. * Nvidia - They design RISC-V cores for the microcontrollers in their GPUs, of which the GPU System Processor is the most well known. They ship billions of RISC-V cores each year as part of their GPUs. This is despite using ARM for the high end CPUs that they sell to the community. * Western Digital - Like Nvidia, they design RISC-V cores for use in their products. They are particularly notable because they released the SweRV Core as open source. * Meta - They are making in-house RISC-V based chips for AI training/inference. This is a short list. It would be relatively easy to assemble a list of dozens of companies designing RISC-V cores outside of China if one tried.
- ryao 1y ago
  There are an incredible number of companies designing their own RISC-V cores right now. Some of them are even are making some of their designs entirely open source so that they are royalty free. The highest end designs are not, but it is hard to imagine their creators not undercutting ARM’s license fees since that is money that they would not have otherwise. As for Qualcomm, they won the lawsuit ARM filed against them. Changing from ARM to RISC-V would delay their ambition to take marketshare from Intel and AMD, so they are likely content to continue paying ARM royalties because they have their eyes on a much bigger prize. It also came out during the lawsuit that Qualcomm considers their in-house design team to be saving them billions of dollars in ARM royalty fees, since they only need to pay royalties for the ISA and nothing else when they use their own in-house designs.
  - fidotron 1y ago
    RISC-V implementations are going to prove to be absolute patent minefields. Just because something is open source will not stop you from being stung during manufacturing, rather like how Android deployments are not free.
    - ryao 1y ago
      So far, patent lawsuits have been more of a problem for those using ARM designs (Qualcomm) than those using RISC-V designs. The Raspberry Pi foundation, Western Digital and Nvidia have successfully put RISC-V designs into their products without any issues. The first two even made their core designs open source (see Hazard3 and SweRV).
      - fidotron 1y ago
        How are SiFive going to protect their IP when everyone is free to copy it? Patents.
        ryao 1y ago
        Anyone is free to make a RISC-V CPU without infringing on SiFive’s IP.
- rollcat 1y ago
  Correct me if I am wrong, but in RISC-V's case, you would be licensing the core design alone, not a license for the ISA plus the core on top. Right now, AFAIK only Apple is serious about designing their own ARM cores, while there are multiple competing implementations for RISC-V (which are still way behind both ARM and x86, but slooowly making their way). VERY long-term, I expect RISC-V to become more competitive, unless whoever-owns-ARM-at-the-time adjusts strategy. Either way, I'm glad to see competition after decades of Intel/x86 dominance.
  - ryao 1y ago
    Qualcomm has a serious development effort in their Oryon CPU cores. Marvel had ThunderX from the Cavium acquisition, but they seem to have discontinued development.
- solarkraft 1y ago
  Yes, but the playing field is different. Anyone can become a Risc-V IP provider and many such companies have already been created.
ksec 1y ago
MediaTek and others using ARMv9 design and pricing, heck even Qualcomm are selling their SoC on Windows PC at cheaper price compared to Intel or AMD. Even at a higher IP price their final product are cheaper, faster and competitive. There may be a strategy about leaving money on the table, but it is another thing about leaving TOO much money on the table. If Intel and AMD's pricing is so far above ARM, there is nothing wrong with increasing your highest performance core 's pricing. I would not be surprised in a 2 - 3 years time the highest PC performance CPU / SoC is coming from Nvidia with ARM CPU Core rather than x86. But knowing Nvidia I know they will charge similar pricing to Intel :D
- ryao 1y ago
  So far, Qualcomm is not paying the royalty rate hikes since they are selling ARM hardware using cores covered under the ARMv8 architectural license that they obtained before SoftBank started pushing ARM to improve profitability. It is interesting that you should mention MediaTek. They joined the RISC-V Software Ecosystem in May 2023: https://riseproject.dev/ https://riseproject.dev/ It seems reasonable to think that they are considering jumping ship. If they are designing their own in-house CPU cores, it will likely be a while before we see them as part of a mediatek SoC. In any case, people do not like added fees. They had previously tolerated ARM’s fees since they were low, but now that they are raising them, people are interested in alternatives. At least some of ARM’s partners are paying the higher for now, but it is an incentive to move to RISC-V, which is no fee for the ISA and either no fee or low fee for IP cores. For example, the hazard3 cores that the Raspberry Pi Foundation adopted in the RP2350 did not require them to pay royalty fees to anyone.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

jasoneckert 1y ago

After watching the Qualcomm-ARM lawsuit in December, I have very little respect for ARM's relentless pursuit of profit for profit's sake: https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-1-opening-statements-and-surprising-revelations/ https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-1... https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-2-is-processor-design-derivative-of-instructing-set-architecture-isa/ https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-2... https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-3-testimonies-end-dispute-funneled-down-to-two-key-questions/ https://www.tantraanalyst.com/ta/qualcomm-vs-arm-trial-day-3...