5 ms·

Java, especially modern Java, is a fine language. The JVM is an awesome runtime. I'm tired of pretending it isn't.

tstrimple 1y ago
The vast majority of Java developers will never touch modern Java and have zero idea of its features or capabilities. I'm in the process of migrating literally thousands of servers and tens of thousands of apps to the cloud and there isn't anything close to modern Java. The absolute majority at this client seems to be Java 8 and there isn't a single Java 17 or newer. So it's one thing to have great modern features. But if you're going to be a Java developer it'll take work / luck to actually be able to use decent versions of it. Very similar story with C++. If you're on a great cutting edge team, you might be able to use the shiny new stuff. But more than likely you'll be relegated to some C++11 at the latest. I haven't seen things quite so bad on the .NET side at this client. Yes there's a ton of legacy ASP.NET apps. But there are also a lot of .NET Core apps. They haven't quite made it to the post Core versions of .NET, but it's still a healthier state than I see with Java. I guess all of this to say that modern versions of "ancient" programming languages are great and really do improve things. But chances are if you're working with an ancient programming language you'll be stuck maintaining legacy shit and won't ever get to utilize the shiny stuff. This is keeping in mind that your average programmer will never even try to interview for FAANG never mind grind leetcode and programming language trivia for weeks like seems so common here.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- FromTheSteppe 1y ago
  Well to be fair, if you wanted Performance, Linux support, and a framework which was built with dependency injection and async support in mind and not just have them as patched in footguns, you had to migrate to .NET Core. A Java 8 Spring app was just good enough.
  - LtWorf 1y ago
    If you want linux support, .net is not what you want. Linux support is an afterthought and it shows. And you never know if it might be dropped next year.
    - mrcsharp 1y ago
      Wrong. Linux support is first class in .Net just like Windows. We are strictly running our .Net code on linux servers and have encountered 0 problems over the past 5 years.
      - LtWorf 1y ago
        3 seconds of looking at the API and you see it's not 1st class at all. Presuming you have ever done any programming on linux, that is.
        mrcsharp 1y ago
        > The API Which one?
        LtWorf 1y ago
        the ones dealing with processes are very obviously a terrible match for posix systems for example.
        neonsunset 1y ago
        Don't bother: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43396171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43396171 These people could not care less about engaging with the subject, they are here because they feel obliged to engage in a moment of hatred of what they think is an enemy tribe.
        mrcsharp 1y ago
        Wow what a thread!
- vips7L 1y ago
  This just anecdotal evidence of your one client. Every statistic I’ve seen shows that at least half is on a runtime > 8, with most in that half being on 17 or 21. My entire company runs on 21 and will be moving to 25 when it’s out.

The vast majority of Java developers will never touch modern Java and have zero idea of its features or capabilities. I'm in the process of migrating literally thousands of servers and tens of thousands of apps to the cloud and there isn't anything close to modern Java. The absolute majority at this client seems to be Java 8 and there isn't a single Java 17 or newer. So it's one thing to have great modern features. But if you're going to be a Java developer it'll take work / luck to actually be able to use decent versions of it. Very similar story with C++. If you're on a great cutting edge team, you might be able to use the shiny new stuff. But more than likely you'll be relegated to some C++11 at the latest. I haven't seen things quite so bad on the .NET side at this client. Yes there's a ton of legacy ASP.NET apps. But there are also a lot of .NET Core apps. They haven't quite made it to the post Core versions of .NET, but it's still a healthier state than I see with Java. I guess all of this to say that modern versions of "ancient" programming languages are great and really do improve things. But chances are if you're working with an ancient programming language you'll be stuck maintaining legacy shit and won't ever get to utilize the shiny stuff. This is keeping in mind that your average programmer will never even try to interview for FAANG never mind grind leetcode and programming language trivia for weeks like seems so common here.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
FromTheSteppe 1y ago
Well to be fair, if you wanted Performance, Linux support, and a framework which was built with dependency injection and async support in mind and not just have them as patched in footguns, you had to migrate to .NET Core. A Java 8 Spring app was just good enough.
- LtWorf 1y ago
  If you want linux support, .net is not what you want. Linux support is an afterthought and it shows. And you never know if it might be dropped next year.
  - mrcsharp 1y ago
    Wrong. Linux support is first class in .Net just like Windows. We are strictly running our .Net code on linux servers and have encountered 0 problems over the past 5 years.
    - LtWorf 1y ago
      3 seconds of looking at the API and you see it's not 1st class at all. Presuming you have ever done any programming on linux, that is.
      - mrcsharp 1y ago
        > The API Which one?
        LtWorf 1y ago
        the ones dealing with processes are very obviously a terrible match for posix systems for example.
        neonsunset 1y ago
        Don't bother: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43396171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43396171 These people could not care less about engaging with the subject, they are here because they feel obliged to engage in a moment of hatred of what they think is an enemy tribe.
        mrcsharp 1y ago
        Wow what a thread!
vips7L 1y ago
This just anecdotal evidence of your one client. Every statistic I’ve seen shows that at least half is on a runtime > 8, with most in that half being on 17 or 21. My entire company runs on 21 and will be moving to 25 when it’s out.