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> •Name, address, phone, and email;\ > blackmail each individual user Blackmail would be the least of my worries, in France we had at least five kidnappings/a

> •Name, address, phone, and email;\ > blackmail each individual user Blackmail would be the least of my worries, in France we had at least five kidnappings/attempted kidnappings related to crypto investors since the beginning of the year.

bambax 1y ago
Yes that's true but it's weird they only focus on crypto investors' families? There are many rich people in France, what's the deal with cryptobros?
- paranoidrobot 1y ago
  Because it's easier to move crypto than physical cash.
- rglullis 1y ago
  It's easier and faster to send the money without having to go to the bank.
- mafriese 1y ago
  You can easily establish the connection from a bank account to a person. A connection from a crypto wallet to a person is extremely difficult. Money laundering with crypto is also much easier (and cheaper usually).
  - smeej 1y ago
    In the vast majority of cases, it's actually extremely easy. It took less than an afternoon for me to learn how to trace 90%+ of transactions on either BTC or any of the networks built on Ethereum or an Ethereum-like protocol. There are large companies that specialize in exactly this, which make tools that allow government agents who have no particular crypto expertise to trace the majority of transactions. It is possible to make your transactions extremely difficult to trace, but you really, really, REALLY have to know what you're doing. Law enforcement loves that people think it's easy and cheap to launder money with crypto, though. It's made it vastly easier for them to catch those people!
    - mafriese 1y ago
      I never doubted that it's possible but it's way harder than identifying bank accounts. There is a massive business behind crypto tracking, that's why companies like MasterCard have acquired CipherTrace. Some years ago there was a really good article / case study from them. I think it was related to a ransomware gang and they were able to identify the threat actor's wallets through crypto tumblers and chain hopping. It's just a matter of how much money and time are you willing to invest into finding out and not a matter of possibility.
    - hylaride 1y ago
      You can trace the BTC or Ethereal transaction of coins, but you cannot trace the criminals after it's converted to Monero or some other "privacy" chain on an exchange run on the dark web. After that you're just tracing other owners, possibly who have no idea where that it was stolen. It literally takes a few hours to wash it all out.
  - csomar 1y ago
    It’s harder but not totally impossible with the traditional banking system. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery
- svara 1y ago
  Guessing their profits are regularly illegal or untaxed, so they're less likely to involve the police.
  - cmcaleer 1y ago
    Seems unlikely given who has been targeted. I doubt the Ledger or Paymium guys have been evading tax on crypto given that they're publicly involved in it and likely would be scrutinised more than the average person by tax authorities.
- em500 1y ago
  Crypto is advertised as providing irreversible transfers, and having ownership of assets solely established by ownership of keys. It shouldn't be surprising that such features would attract criminals.
iamacyborg 1y ago
And more than one finger sent in the post.
stringsandchars 1y ago
This may seem callous, but isn't a large point of crypto that you are 'free' from the shackles imposed by the State? And I guess that includes protection from criminals by the oppressive forces of the State (aka the police). In which case being kidnapped and having your fingers sent to your family is an integral part of your 'freedom'.
- lm28469 1y ago
  The state takes a flat 30% tax on capital gains regardless of the source, I'd say they paid their fair share
  - maeln 1y ago
    Depends on if they cashed out and how they did it. There was a big trend for a while to go live in Portugal for a while, enough to be considered a tax resident there, and then cash out there because (at the time, idk if it's still true), they had no (or little) tax on crypto cash out.
    - orwin 1y ago
      Yeah, I know two French people who did it (one of them avoided UK taxes as he was paid in crypto while working in the UK, the other it's muddier). I know three people in the space, and only those two were on the financial side, so to me, while Blockchain is still a legit tech, anybody using cryptocurrency I peg as a tax evader.
      - csomar 1y ago
        Good thing we have courts, lawyers and judges for that. It’s funny everyone here hates on Trump but as soon as something align with their view, they want a defacto no due process application.
        orwin 1y ago
        Sorry if i implied anything, i must have missed part of the conversation, i was just confirming that did happen (taking the portugese residency to avoid crypto tax) a few years ago. In my opinion, police should protect even violent criminals from violence when possible, so of course i'm not advocating for anything to happen on tax "avoiders", and they should be protected. I was just stating that i know people in the crypto space, and if you are, i immediately peg you as a small-time sociopath from my past experience. Also i don't care about them getting judged for tax evasion, i know they won't be and honestly, good for them. I also don't care for nonviolent thieves and think the same thing about them. Profiteering was not how i was raised, but i understand different people have different standards (and parents, luckily mine are great, it's not the case for everybody). People do what they need to do, i found some comportment sociopathic, but as long as it is nonviolent, i'm not mad.

bambax 1y ago

Yes that's true but it's weird they only focus on crypto investors' families? There are many rich people in France, what's the deal with cryptobros?

paranoidrobot 1y ago
Because it's easier to move crypto than physical cash.
rglullis 1y ago
It's easier and faster to send the money without having to go to the bank.
mafriese 1y ago
You can easily establish the connection from a bank account to a person. A connection from a crypto wallet to a person is extremely difficult. Money laundering with crypto is also much easier (and cheaper usually).
- smeej 1y ago
  In the vast majority of cases, it's actually extremely easy. It took less than an afternoon for me to learn how to trace 90%+ of transactions on either BTC or any of the networks built on Ethereum or an Ethereum-like protocol. There are large companies that specialize in exactly this, which make tools that allow government agents who have no particular crypto expertise to trace the majority of transactions. It is possible to make your transactions extremely difficult to trace, but you really, really, REALLY have to know what you're doing. Law enforcement loves that people think it's easy and cheap to launder money with crypto, though. It's made it vastly easier for them to catch those people!
  - mafriese 1y ago
    I never doubted that it's possible but it's way harder than identifying bank accounts. There is a massive business behind crypto tracking, that's why companies like MasterCard have acquired CipherTrace. Some years ago there was a really good article / case study from them. I think it was related to a ransomware gang and they were able to identify the threat actor's wallets through crypto tumblers and chain hopping. It's just a matter of how much money and time are you willing to invest into finding out and not a matter of possibility.
  - hylaride 1y ago
    You can trace the BTC or Ethereal transaction of coins, but you cannot trace the criminals after it's converted to Monero or some other "privacy" chain on an exchange run on the dark web. After that you're just tracing other owners, possibly who have no idea where that it was stolen. It literally takes a few hours to wash it all out.
- csomar 1y ago
  It’s harder but not totally impossible with the traditional banking system. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery
svara 1y ago
Guessing their profits are regularly illegal or untaxed, so they're less likely to involve the police.
- cmcaleer 1y ago
  Seems unlikely given who has been targeted. I doubt the Ledger or Paymium guys have been evading tax on crypto given that they're publicly involved in it and likely would be scrutinised more than the average person by tax authorities.
em500 1y ago
Crypto is advertised as providing irreversible transfers, and having ownership of assets solely established by ownership of keys. It shouldn't be surprising that such features would attract criminals.

iamacyborg 1y ago

And more than one finger sent in the post.

stringsandchars 1y ago

This may seem callous, but isn't a large point of crypto that you are 'free' from the shackles imposed by the State? And I guess that includes protection from criminals by the oppressive forces of the State (aka the police). In which case being kidnapped and having your fingers sent to your family is an integral part of your 'freedom'.

lm28469 1y ago
The state takes a flat 30% tax on capital gains regardless of the source, I'd say they paid their fair share
- maeln 1y ago
  Depends on if they cashed out and how they did it. There was a big trend for a while to go live in Portugal for a while, enough to be considered a tax resident there, and then cash out there because (at the time, idk if it's still true), they had no (or little) tax on crypto cash out.
  - orwin 1y ago
    Yeah, I know two French people who did it (one of them avoided UK taxes as he was paid in crypto while working in the UK, the other it's muddier). I know three people in the space, and only those two were on the financial side, so to me, while Blockchain is still a legit tech, anybody using cryptocurrency I peg as a tax evader.
    - csomar 1y ago
      Good thing we have courts, lawyers and judges for that. It’s funny everyone here hates on Trump but as soon as something align with their view, they want a defacto no due process application.
      - orwin 1y ago
        Sorry if i implied anything, i must have missed part of the conversation, i was just confirming that did happen (taking the portugese residency to avoid crypto tax) a few years ago. In my opinion, police should protect even violent criminals from violence when possible, so of course i'm not advocating for anything to happen on tax "avoiders", and they should be protected. I was just stating that i know people in the crypto space, and if you are, i immediately peg you as a small-time sociopath from my past experience. Also i don't care about them getting judged for tax evasion, i know they won't be and honestly, good for them. I also don't care for nonviolent thieves and think the same thing about them. Profiteering was not how i was raised, but i understand different people have different standards (and parents, luckily mine are great, it's not the case for everybody). People do what they need to do, i found some comportment sociopathic, but as long as it is nonviolent, i'm not mad.