7 ms·

This is true, but some German compound words acquire a meaning that doesn't simply derive from their component words. Well-known ones include Kindergarten and W

This is true, but some German compound words acquire a meaning that doesn't simply derive from their component words. Well-known ones include Kindergarten and Weltschmerz. This is often the case for domain-specific terms (Gestaltpsychologie, Bildungsroman).

Tainnor 1y ago
Weltschmerz and Bildungsroman relate very closely to their compositional meaning. Sure, they have become slightly more specialised (a novel about a teacher wouldn't be a "Bildungsroman", I guess), but it's not like you can't make an educated guess. Also, the fact that collocations can acquire more specialised meanings than just the sum of their parts is hardly unique to German (in English, the "theory of relativity" means something very specific and isn't used, e.g., for moral or epistemic relativism).
- elygre 1y ago
  You find the same in any language. A «coming of age» story is not about birthdays.
  - KPGv2 1y ago
    And in any case, "this concept is untranslatable" is nonsense, usually born out of xenophobia or jingoism. "MY language is more expressive than those OTHERS." Every language has technical words that "cannot be translated." But when we say "cannot be translated," what we mean is "it is unsafe to expect a foreign reader to know what the term means without explanation." It's not that it can't be translated; it's that there isn't necessarily a single-word equivalent. I agree with the original suggestion that these can be a challenge to translate elegantly. But, speaking as a lawyer by training, the solution is obvious: you begin your technical document by describing novel technical terms. Then you use them in your document without explanation. Consider "sushi": how do you translate that? Nowadays, we don't. But before it was widely known, you could've just said "a sour rice dish" and be done with it. (For those of you thinking "no wait, sushi is raw fish," no. That's sashimi. Sushi is vinegared rice mixed with other stuff, often. (Sushi can be with egg, pickled plum, crab, beef, etc. none of which are fish.) Makizushi = rolled sour rice Nigirizushi = sour rice to be gripped Chirashizushi = sour rice with stuff scattered in it
    - dmd 1y ago
      > Chirashizushi = sour rice with stuff scattered in it And it annoys me to no end how many restaurants serve "chirashi" with completely plain, non-vinegared, non-seasoned-in-any-way rice. Just "throw some sashimi on some white rice".
raffael_de 1y ago
The whole is more than the sum of its parts; it's the product.
cameronh90 1y ago
Sure, but again those concepts typically will still have an equivalent way to express them in English. For example, Kindergarten is nursery in en-GB. I'm not entirely sure what the others actually mean, but Bildungsroman is probably "coming-of-age novel" which is a common literary genre. The biggest challenge I've had when writing multilingual user interfaces aren't lacking a way to translate, but just practical issues like dynamic string construction or where the structure of the UI somehow doesn't work in another language, or when a given string is used in multiple parts of the app in the English version, but the non-English versions need different strings in different places[0], or just where an English single word translates into a whole sentence (or vice versa). [0] For example some languages don't have a commonly used word that means "limb" - i.e. arm _or_ leg. A bit niche, but if you're doing something medical-related it can cause issues.
- paganel 1y ago
  > coming-of-age novel" Technically it is correct, but in doing that you lose the essence of the word “roman” and of the whole influence French culture had over the whole of Europe until not that long ago, including in Germany. It is in these cases where it is quite obvious that Britain was an island at the edge of Europe, culturally and not only.
  - sealeck 1y ago
    Your objection to translating "Roman" as "novel" seems to be that Roman is closer to the French word for novel than "novel" in English is? But this seems to be more an objection to English using the word "novel" instead of something closer to the modern French term, and not actually an objection related to the translation. This seems like a slightly strange objection to me; I would have thought the actual semantic problem lies with "Bildung", in that a Bildungsroman generally involves some kind of learning/development/improvement, whereas a coming-of-age novel does not necessarily involve this. > It is in these cases where it is quite obvious that Britain was an island at the edge of Europe, culturally and not only. I mean this is a very weird claim, which assumes that Europe is culturally homogenous (e.g. I think you will find that Britain and France are culturally closer than France and Slovenia).
amiga386 1y ago
You do have to draw a distinction between compounding, where joined words gain their own meaning (some English examples: breakfast, football, highlight), and agglutination, which is the habit of the language to join words together, not necessarily creating a novel word that has its own meaning and dictionary entry, which is what Mr Twain is grumbling about in the article.
Xmd5a 1y ago
>Jardin d'enfant. All languages have noun-phrases. In this case, they are transparent.
eukgoekoko 1y ago
+1 Baumwolle is my fav.
- bmicraft 1y ago
  It's a good one ("tree wool"), but Buschwolle/Strauchwolle (bush/shrub wool) would probably be closer to accurate. In case any anyone's still wondering: the word is cotton
KPGv2 1y ago
It's worth noting this is normal in language. Consider the highly non-technical English "lighthouse," which has acquired a far more specific meaning than "a house made of light" or "a house that produces light" or "a house that weighs very little." I'm not familiar with "blackboard" being a valid term for any board that is black, but specifically one used in pairing with chalk to be written on. etc.
yubblegum 1y ago
> Kindergarten Don't know about that. Garten, garden, a nurturing environment for raising delicate flowers. Children's Garden. Kindergarten.
- burning_hamster 1y ago
  Garten / garden derive from garte / yard, which just meant an enclosed outdoor space.
- MobiusHorizons 1y ago
  I find it really interesting that in Russian they clearly took the same concept but just made it out of Russian words instead. Kindergarten in russion is детский (children's) сад (garden). There are other words that are straight from German, for instance бутерброд (sandwitch).
  - yubblegum 1y ago
    iirc at least 3 Russian empresses (and also Russian duchesses) started out as German princesses. The court spoke French. And Russia looked to the West as a role model and source of expertise for modernization and development. It could have been one or the other but France post revolution didn't have princesses to spare, so there is also the political aspect in terms of an absolute monarchy. Would be interesting to know when these words entered Russian vocabulary: before or after Napoleon. "From its inception, Russia has desperately needed foreign professionals—to teach Russians about governance, manufacturing, military, mining, and other trades. The Dutch, Swedes, Brits, and French were among the foreigners who came to Russia. But Germans certainly dominated, becoming a privileged nationality in Russia. "The ruling Romanov dynasty, which shared a lot of the German bloodline, became a branch of the Oldenburg dynasty under the name of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. Many of its members were born in Germany and spoke Russian with an accent. Germans, especially the Baltic ones, rapidly advanced through the ranks of the Russian society thanks to their talents, persistence, discipline, and loyalty to the throne (as of 1913, approximately 2,400,000 Germans lived in Russia)." https://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/08/27/russias-love-affair-with-germany/ https://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/08/27/russias-lov...
WalterBright 1y ago
Don't forget: gefingerpoken mittengraben springewerk blowenfusen poppencorcken spitzensparken
- VonGallifrey 1y ago
  None of those are actual German words. For some of them, I found references that these words could potentially be used in Pennsylvania, but most of these words are not even German, even when you split them into their components.
  - FiatLuxDave 1y ago
    The reference you were looking for is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights
    - VonGallifrey 1y ago
      From your link there: > written in a mangled form of German. If you show this to anyone who knows German, they will recognize that this was written by someone who doesn't.
      - marcusb 1y ago
        I believe the comment you replied to is what is known as a "joke".
        VonGallifrey 1y ago
        Given that the commenter left another comment about having been misinformed, I don't think it was a Joke. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008622
        marcusb 1y ago
        yeah, it was a joke and what you just linked to was sarcasm and/or mockery.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Tainnor 1y ago

Weltschmerz and Bildungsroman relate very closely to their compositional meaning. Sure, they have become slightly more specialised (a novel about a teacher wouldn't be a "Bildungsroman", I guess), but it's not like you can't make an educated guess. Also, the fact that collocations can acquire more specialised meanings than just the sum of their parts is hardly unique to German (in English, the "theory of relativity" means something very specific and isn't used, e.g., for moral or epistemic relativism).

elygre 1y ago
You find the same in any language. A «coming of age» story is not about birthdays.
- KPGv2 1y ago
  And in any case, "this concept is untranslatable" is nonsense, usually born out of xenophobia or jingoism. "MY language is more expressive than those OTHERS." Every language has technical words that "cannot be translated." But when we say "cannot be translated," what we mean is "it is unsafe to expect a foreign reader to know what the term means without explanation." It's not that it can't be translated; it's that there isn't necessarily a single-word equivalent. I agree with the original suggestion that these can be a challenge to translate elegantly. But, speaking as a lawyer by training, the solution is obvious: you begin your technical document by describing novel technical terms. Then you use them in your document without explanation. Consider "sushi": how do you translate that? Nowadays, we don't. But before it was widely known, you could've just said "a sour rice dish" and be done with it. (For those of you thinking "no wait, sushi is raw fish," no. That's sashimi. Sushi is vinegared rice mixed with other stuff, often. (Sushi can be with egg, pickled plum, crab, beef, etc. none of which are fish.) Makizushi = rolled sour rice Nigirizushi = sour rice to be gripped Chirashizushi = sour rice with stuff scattered in it
  - dmd 1y ago
    > Chirashizushi = sour rice with stuff scattered in it And it annoys me to no end how many restaurants serve "chirashi" with completely plain, non-vinegared, non-seasoned-in-any-way rice. Just "throw some sashimi on some white rice".

raffael_de 1y ago

The whole is more than the sum of its parts; it's the product.

cameronh90 1y ago

Sure, but again those concepts typically will still have an equivalent way to express them in English. For example, Kindergarten is nursery in en-GB. I'm not entirely sure what the others actually mean, but Bildungsroman is probably "coming-of-age novel" which is a common literary genre. The biggest challenge I've had when writing multilingual user interfaces aren't lacking a way to translate, but just practical issues like dynamic string construction or where the structure of the UI somehow doesn't work in another language, or when a given string is used in multiple parts of the app in the English version, but the non-English versions need different strings in different places[0], or just where an English single word translates into a whole sentence (or vice versa). [0] For example some languages don't have a commonly used word that means "limb" - i.e. arm _or_ leg. A bit niche, but if you're doing something medical-related it can cause issues.

paganel 1y ago
> coming-of-age novel" Technically it is correct, but in doing that you lose the essence of the word “roman” and of the whole influence French culture had over the whole of Europe until not that long ago, including in Germany. It is in these cases where it is quite obvious that Britain was an island at the edge of Europe, culturally and not only.
- sealeck 1y ago
  Your objection to translating "Roman" as "novel" seems to be that Roman is closer to the French word for novel than "novel" in English is? But this seems to be more an objection to English using the word "novel" instead of something closer to the modern French term, and not actually an objection related to the translation. This seems like a slightly strange objection to me; I would have thought the actual semantic problem lies with "Bildung", in that a Bildungsroman generally involves some kind of learning/development/improvement, whereas a coming-of-age novel does not necessarily involve this. > It is in these cases where it is quite obvious that Britain was an island at the edge of Europe, culturally and not only. I mean this is a very weird claim, which assumes that Europe is culturally homogenous (e.g. I think you will find that Britain and France are culturally closer than France and Slovenia).

amiga386 1y ago

You do have to draw a distinction between compounding, where joined words gain their own meaning (some English examples: breakfast, football, highlight), and agglutination, which is the habit of the language to join words together, not necessarily creating a novel word that has its own meaning and dictionary entry, which is what Mr Twain is grumbling about in the article.

Xmd5a 1y ago

>Jardin d'enfant. All languages have noun-phrases. In this case, they are transparent.

eukgoekoko 1y ago

+1 Baumwolle is my fav.

bmicraft 1y ago
It's a good one ("tree wool"), but Buschwolle/Strauchwolle (bush/shrub wool) would probably be closer to accurate. In case any anyone's still wondering: the word is cotton

KPGv2 1y ago

It's worth noting this is normal in language. Consider the highly non-technical English "lighthouse," which has acquired a far more specific meaning than "a house made of light" or "a house that produces light" or "a house that weighs very little." I'm not familiar with "blackboard" being a valid term for any board that is black, but specifically one used in pairing with chalk to be written on. etc.

yubblegum 1y ago

> Kindergarten Don't know about that. Garten, garden, a nurturing environment for raising delicate flowers. Children's Garden. Kindergarten.

burning_hamster 1y ago
Garten / garden derive from garte / yard, which just meant an enclosed outdoor space.
MobiusHorizons 1y ago
I find it really interesting that in Russian they clearly took the same concept but just made it out of Russian words instead. Kindergarten in russion is детский (children's) сад (garden). There are other words that are straight from German, for instance бутерброд (sandwitch).
- yubblegum 1y ago
  iirc at least 3 Russian empresses (and also Russian duchesses) started out as German princesses. The court spoke French. And Russia looked to the West as a role model and source of expertise for modernization and development. It could have been one or the other but France post revolution didn't have princesses to spare, so there is also the political aspect in terms of an absolute monarchy. Would be interesting to know when these words entered Russian vocabulary: before or after Napoleon. "From its inception, Russia has desperately needed foreign professionals—to teach Russians about governance, manufacturing, military, mining, and other trades. The Dutch, Swedes, Brits, and French were among the foreigners who came to Russia. But Germans certainly dominated, becoming a privileged nationality in Russia. "The ruling Romanov dynasty, which shared a lot of the German bloodline, became a branch of the Oldenburg dynasty under the name of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. Many of its members were born in Germany and spoke Russian with an accent. Germans, especially the Baltic ones, rapidly advanced through the ranks of the Russian society thanks to their talents, persistence, discipline, and loyalty to the throne (as of 1913, approximately 2,400,000 Germans lived in Russia)." https://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/08/27/russias-love-affair-with-germany/ https://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/08/27/russias-lov...

WalterBright 1y ago

Don't forget: gefingerpoken mittengraben springewerk blowenfusen poppencorcken spitzensparken

VonGallifrey 1y ago
None of those are actual German words. For some of them, I found references that these words could potentially be used in Pennsylvania, but most of these words are not even German, even when you split them into their components.
- FiatLuxDave 1y ago
  The reference you were looking for is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights
  - VonGallifrey 1y ago
    From your link there: > written in a mangled form of German. If you show this to anyone who knows German, they will recognize that this was written by someone who doesn't.
    - marcusb 1y ago
      I believe the comment you replied to is what is known as a "joke".
      - VonGallifrey 1y ago
        Given that the commenter left another comment about having been misinformed, I don't think it was a Joke. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008622 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44008622
        marcusb 1y ago
        yeah, it was a joke and what you just linked to was sarcasm and/or mockery.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]