5 ms·

"Tomcat" is male in German, not female: Der Kater. "Wife" is female in German, not neutral: Die Ehefrau. "Weib" is old language and rude to use these days.

DocTomoe 1y ago
Consider that the text is, in fact, from the 19th century. Also, 'Weib' is not rude in every context. "Wein, Weib und Gesang" is not diminutive towards women, but in fact appreciative (as in 'necessary for having a good time'). We have Weiberfassnacht. And then there are the dialects, in which "Weib" often is indicative of a homely, loving relationship (-> bairisch, Swabian). Context matters.
- Helmut10001 1y ago
  Sorry to be picky, but "Wein, Weib und Gesang" is not neutral. It reduces "Weib" to the value of Wein and Gesang, something only needed for pleasure.
  - wilgertvelinga 1y ago
    Why do you assume reduction?
  - ahofmann 1y ago
    You are applying logic and common sense from this century, to words of other centuries. This doesn't work, and never will. I think this is important, because a lot of people do this and nothing good comes out of it.
    - Helmut10001 1y ago
      Yes, perhaps you are right. But then, look at who responded to my comment - all usernames suggest male companions. We are also now, not back then. Nothing prevents us from rethinking things from time to time.
      - jraph 1y ago
        Yes, sexism is not a new thing from today, and such sentences are witnesses of this. We might be interpreting stuff from the past with today's eyes, true, but that doesn't make the interpretation wrong. There are a lot of things we know now and didn't before. It's even totally possible we have reading keys that might have been unavailable back then. We should not interpret stuff out of context though, but here I'm not sure taking the context in account would not make the point even stronger. I would be quite surprised about any context changing things for this particular phrase (but happy to be surprised...)
    - watwut 1y ago
      Are you claiming it was appreciative of women back then? It was expression about loud wild partying, the sort of that is annoying to everyone living on the same street as your beer pub is. The women who were present were not appreciated, they were look down at sort of tramps. A well behaved woman was not supposed to be present. When you are casting it as appreciative of women because they are necessary for fun, you are applying modern idea that women present at a wild party says something positive about that woman. Back then, it suggested easy sexual availability and that was seen as a bad thing. Edit: also in general, when people in the past were crass, other people in the past were offended over it. Even women themselves who accepted their role as god given would frequently get offended over hearing what they considered crass language. When women were supposed to be guardians of morality (and Germany had such periods), they would openly take issue with such statement. Because it was their expected role to be offended and to gently positively impact men (in a way that does not actually interfere with what he does).
      - ahofmann 1y ago
        This will be a bit difficult to answer, I think I'm unable to answer. First of all: it is very hard to talk about subtleties of meaning and interpretation in written language. Second: english is not my first language. So please interpret my text as amicably as possible. "Are you claiming it was appreciative of women back then?" I think it depends very much on context, who said it, where does it get said, to whom and in what type of voice etc. The saying "Wein, Weib und Gesang" as such could be appreciative towards women, and I think it could be said in a non-demeaning way, also in the times, where women had a much worse standing as of today. I think this, not because I know anything about that time back then, but because I learned in the last decades how heavily the perception or meaning of words can change. And how very personal those perceptions are. When I went to school, we used words casually, that would be offensive today. And I know that my friends and I used these words without thinking twice if they're offensive, because to us, they just weren't. Others could be offended by those words at that time. But this is because other people have a different moral, or knowledge, or education, or age etc. What I want to say with all that: we are almost unable to comprehend how people back then thought, talked and meant the stuff, they said back then. Because we are pretty much blinded by our own current perception and moral of things. For example, I tend to think amicably about the past, so my interpretation of stuff that was said in the past gets a "rose tint". Others tend to think that the past was bad, people were stupid and crass, and wrong. So they interpret things in a much darker light, than me. I can't say that anyone is more right than the other, because it comes down to very personal interpretations. > It was expression about loud wild partying, the sort of that is annoying to everyone living on the same street as your beer pub is. The women who were present were not appreciated, they were look down at sort of tramps. A well behaved woman was not supposed to be present. This is what you learned and interpreted about that phrase and time. For me this is a possible situation you describe, but there are also very different situations, where this phrase could come from. In my social circles, the word "Weib" was used in a very endearing, appreciative way towards women. Women used that word for describing themselves as strong, and emancipated. So the phrase "Wein, Weib und Gesang" could have a very positive connotation. That says nothing about what happened a few hundred years ago, it just shows how personal language in the end is.
  - KwanEsq 1y ago
    Would "wine, friends, and song" do the same?
    - jraph 1y ago
      No gender is weirdly specific in your version. Not sure about the reduction, but "Wine, women and song" somewhat assumes the point of view from an heterosexual male and could feel offensive just for this. "Wine, man and song" would sound weird, but it should not sound weirder than the "women" version. That's because we are all used to the male pov assumption and that's the core of the issue. And of course, to add insult to injury, the phrase will feel like the reduction the grand parent describes to many. So I think we'd be better off dropping those old phrases in favor of things like your version, which doesn't have these issues. Note: not a German nor an English native speaker so I might be missing some cultural subtlety that could make my POV a bit wrong and disconnected from reality.
- ralfd 1y ago
  And “weiblich” is the commonly used adjective instead of the Latin derived feminine.
  - cess11 1y ago
    An example: "Eine Göttin ist eine weibliche Gottheit." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6ttin https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6ttin
- arrowsmith 1y ago
  > Wein, Weib und Gesang This saying exists in English too: "wine, women and song".
  - bernds74 1y ago
    Actually it means "sex, drugs and rock'n'roll".
- patates 1y ago
  If you involve Swabian (which I could argue is more than just a dialect), everything goes out the window and you start again anyway.
bradley13 1y ago
And a girl is a "Mädchen", which is neuter, even though a boys is a "Knabe" and definitely male. Amongst guys, women are still sometimes referred collectively to as "Weiber".
- jotaen 1y ago
  Fun fact: “Das Mädchen” (“little girl”, neuter) is diminutive form for “Die Mad” (“girl”, female). All diminutives in German are neuter, for whatever reason. You could do the same for “Der Knabe” (“boy”) → “Das Knäbchen” (“little boy”). Curiously, saying “Die Mad” would be as uncommon – at least nowadays – as saying “Das Knäbchen”.
  - amaccuish 1y ago
    > Curiously, saying “Die Mad” would be as uncommon – at least nowadays – as saying “Das Knäbchen”. I liked that The Handmaids Tale in German is der Report der Magd.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - School-Cotton 1y ago
    > All diminutives in German are neuter, for whatever reason It’s just one instance of the more general principle that the gender of nouns with a common suffix are based on the suffix. E.g. all nouns ending in -keit or -ung are feminine regardless of whether they have any connection to the biological female sex.
- jcmontx 1y ago
  A German guy once told me "Weizen und Weiber stößt man von unten"
  - junga 1y ago
    Instant „Fremdscham“.
HK-NC 1y ago
This word is used in An Die Freude, is it considered ofensive when I sing this? Lack of talent aside of course.

DocTomoe 1y ago

Consider that the text is, in fact, from the 19th century. Also, 'Weib' is not rude in every context. "Wein, Weib und Gesang" is not diminutive towards women, but in fact appreciative (as in 'necessary for having a good time'). We have Weiberfassnacht. And then there are the dialects, in which "Weib" often is indicative of a homely, loving relationship (-> bairisch, Swabian). Context matters.

Helmut10001 1y ago
Sorry to be picky, but "Wein, Weib und Gesang" is not neutral. It reduces "Weib" to the value of Wein and Gesang, something only needed for pleasure.
- wilgertvelinga 1y ago
  Why do you assume reduction?
- ahofmann 1y ago
  You are applying logic and common sense from this century, to words of other centuries. This doesn't work, and never will. I think this is important, because a lot of people do this and nothing good comes out of it.
  - Helmut10001 1y ago
    Yes, perhaps you are right. But then, look at who responded to my comment - all usernames suggest male companions. We are also now, not back then. Nothing prevents us from rethinking things from time to time.
    - jraph 1y ago
      Yes, sexism is not a new thing from today, and such sentences are witnesses of this. We might be interpreting stuff from the past with today's eyes, true, but that doesn't make the interpretation wrong. There are a lot of things we know now and didn't before. It's even totally possible we have reading keys that might have been unavailable back then. We should not interpret stuff out of context though, but here I'm not sure taking the context in account would not make the point even stronger. I would be quite surprised about any context changing things for this particular phrase (but happy to be surprised...)
  - watwut 1y ago
    Are you claiming it was appreciative of women back then? It was expression about loud wild partying, the sort of that is annoying to everyone living on the same street as your beer pub is. The women who were present were not appreciated, they were look down at sort of tramps. A well behaved woman was not supposed to be present. When you are casting it as appreciative of women because they are necessary for fun, you are applying modern idea that women present at a wild party says something positive about that woman. Back then, it suggested easy sexual availability and that was seen as a bad thing. Edit: also in general, when people in the past were crass, other people in the past were offended over it. Even women themselves who accepted their role as god given would frequently get offended over hearing what they considered crass language. When women were supposed to be guardians of morality (and Germany had such periods), they would openly take issue with such statement. Because it was their expected role to be offended and to gently positively impact men (in a way that does not actually interfere with what he does).
    - ahofmann 1y ago
      This will be a bit difficult to answer, I think I'm unable to answer. First of all: it is very hard to talk about subtleties of meaning and interpretation in written language. Second: english is not my first language. So please interpret my text as amicably as possible. "Are you claiming it was appreciative of women back then?" I think it depends very much on context, who said it, where does it get said, to whom and in what type of voice etc. The saying "Wein, Weib und Gesang" as such could be appreciative towards women, and I think it could be said in a non-demeaning way, also in the times, where women had a much worse standing as of today. I think this, not because I know anything about that time back then, but because I learned in the last decades how heavily the perception or meaning of words can change. And how very personal those perceptions are. When I went to school, we used words casually, that would be offensive today. And I know that my friends and I used these words without thinking twice if they're offensive, because to us, they just weren't. Others could be offended by those words at that time. But this is because other people have a different moral, or knowledge, or education, or age etc. What I want to say with all that: we are almost unable to comprehend how people back then thought, talked and meant the stuff, they said back then. Because we are pretty much blinded by our own current perception and moral of things. For example, I tend to think amicably about the past, so my interpretation of stuff that was said in the past gets a "rose tint". Others tend to think that the past was bad, people were stupid and crass, and wrong. So they interpret things in a much darker light, than me. I can't say that anyone is more right than the other, because it comes down to very personal interpretations. > It was expression about loud wild partying, the sort of that is annoying to everyone living on the same street as your beer pub is. The women who were present were not appreciated, they were look down at sort of tramps. A well behaved woman was not supposed to be present. This is what you learned and interpreted about that phrase and time. For me this is a possible situation you describe, but there are also very different situations, where this phrase could come from. In my social circles, the word "Weib" was used in a very endearing, appreciative way towards women. Women used that word for describing themselves as strong, and emancipated. So the phrase "Wein, Weib und Gesang" could have a very positive connotation. That says nothing about what happened a few hundred years ago, it just shows how personal language in the end is.
- KwanEsq 1y ago
  Would "wine, friends, and song" do the same?
  - jraph 1y ago
    No gender is weirdly specific in your version. Not sure about the reduction, but "Wine, women and song" somewhat assumes the point of view from an heterosexual male and could feel offensive just for this. "Wine, man and song" would sound weird, but it should not sound weirder than the "women" version. That's because we are all used to the male pov assumption and that's the core of the issue. And of course, to add insult to injury, the phrase will feel like the reduction the grand parent describes to many. So I think we'd be better off dropping those old phrases in favor of things like your version, which doesn't have these issues. Note: not a German nor an English native speaker so I might be missing some cultural subtlety that could make my POV a bit wrong and disconnected from reality.
ralfd 1y ago
And “weiblich” is the commonly used adjective instead of the Latin derived feminine.
- cess11 1y ago
  An example: "Eine Göttin ist eine weibliche Gottheit." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6ttin https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6ttin
arrowsmith 1y ago
> Wein, Weib und Gesang This saying exists in English too: "wine, women and song".
- bernds74 1y ago
  Actually it means "sex, drugs and rock'n'roll".
patates 1y ago
If you involve Swabian (which I could argue is more than just a dialect), everything goes out the window and you start again anyway.

bradley13 1y ago

And a girl is a "Mädchen", which is neuter, even though a boys is a "Knabe" and definitely male. Amongst guys, women are still sometimes referred collectively to as "Weiber".

jotaen 1y ago
Fun fact: “Das Mädchen” (“little girl”, neuter) is diminutive form for “Die Mad” (“girl”, female). All diminutives in German are neuter, for whatever reason. You could do the same for “Der Knabe” (“boy”) → “Das Knäbchen” (“little boy”). Curiously, saying “Die Mad” would be as uncommon – at least nowadays – as saying “Das Knäbchen”.
- amaccuish 1y ago
  > Curiously, saying “Die Mad” would be as uncommon – at least nowadays – as saying “Das Knäbchen”. I liked that The Handmaids Tale in German is der Report der Magd.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  > All diminutives in German are neuter, for whatever reason It’s just one instance of the more general principle that the gender of nouns with a common suffix are based on the suffix. E.g. all nouns ending in -keit or -ung are feminine regardless of whether they have any connection to the biological female sex.
jcmontx 1y ago
A German guy once told me "Weizen und Weiber stößt man von unten"
- junga 1y ago
  Instant „Fremdscham“.

HK-NC 1y ago

This word is used in An Die Freude, is it considered ofensive when I sing this? Lack of talent aside of course.