4 ms·

Just to make sure: Google software has the same exact permission structure across the board? e.g. No Google product uses the same permissions NextCloud is seeki

Just to make sure: Google software has the same exact permission structure across the board? e.g. No Google product uses the same permissions NextCloud is seeking, and instead, they are using SAF? Especially for things that do what NextCloud is doing here. I just want to be sure that Google is playing by the same rules they they put out for NextCloud and other app developers.

zb3 1y ago
Google is smart enough to not make things that obvious, but let's not get fooled.. the point is that if API changes would negatively impact Google products financially, they'd not go through. But if they impact a competitor, it's not an issue. Locked down API means Google can innovate (because they can change the API), but you can't.
IshKebab 1y ago
They definitely aren't playing by the same rules. If Google Drive needs an API or permission it gets it no questions asked.
- tadfisher 1y ago
  In the Play Store, find the Drive app, select "About this app", scroll down to "App permissions", and tap "See more". It does not have the "manage external storage" permission listed, which is the one Nextcloud says they need.
  - IshKebab 1y ago
    Right but it doesn't do the same thing Nextcloud does. If it did do you think Google would say to the drive team "sorry you can't do that"? Of course not. They'd invent a new permission or just whitelist Google apps (they've done it before).
    - nolist_policy 1y ago
      No, they would just use the SAF API.
  - greatgib 1y ago
    It's a lie in plain sight, because for most Google apps, including this one, a lot of background processing is not done by the app itself but by the Google play services app that is all powerful.
tadfisher 1y ago
Open the Drive app, tap the "New" button, and select "Upload". You get a file picker UI. This UI is provided by the Storage Access Framework that Nextcloud says they cannot use.
- Macha 1y ago
  This is not the same functionality that Nextcloud provides though. This is one time upload of manually selected files, not ongoing passive sync of an entire directory tree.
  - tadfisher 1y ago
    Ongoing sync is still possible through ACTION_OPEN_DOCUMENT_TREE [0], and using ContentResolver.takePersistableUriPermission [1] to maintain long-lived access to that directory. Enumerating files is slow but that is not a major concern when the use-case is a background sync, and you can drop down to ContentResolver APIs to reduce the number of IPC calls when enumerating. [0]: https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/documents-files#grant-access-directory https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/d... [1]: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/ContentResolver#takePersistableUriPermission(android.net.Uri,%20int) https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Cont...
    - apitman 1y ago
      > Enumerating files is slow but that is not a major concern when the use-case is a background sync Slow means it's probably burning a lot of CPU, and that is a problem for background tasks, especially on mobile.
      - tadfisher 1y ago
        No, the call is going through ContentProvider, which happens over Binder IPC, which entails context switching and other I/O overhead. Compared to local file operations (java.io and friends) this is massive; compared to anything else your device does, it's not a big deal at all, and it's not CPU-bound.

zb3 1y ago

Google is smart enough to not make things that obvious, but let's not get fooled.. the point is that if API changes would negatively impact Google products financially, they'd not go through. But if they impact a competitor, it's not an issue. Locked down API means Google can innovate (because they can change the API), but you can't.

IshKebab 1y ago

They definitely aren't playing by the same rules. If Google Drive needs an API or permission it gets it no questions asked.

tadfisher 1y ago
In the Play Store, find the Drive app, select "About this app", scroll down to "App permissions", and tap "See more". It does not have the "manage external storage" permission listed, which is the one Nextcloud says they need.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  Right but it doesn't do the same thing Nextcloud does. If it did do you think Google would say to the drive team "sorry you can't do that"? Of course not. They'd invent a new permission or just whitelist Google apps (they've done it before).
  - nolist_policy 1y ago
    No, they would just use the SAF API.
- greatgib 1y ago
  It's a lie in plain sight, because for most Google apps, including this one, a lot of background processing is not done by the app itself but by the Google play services app that is all powerful.

tadfisher 1y ago

Open the Drive app, tap the "New" button, and select "Upload". You get a file picker UI. This UI is provided by the Storage Access Framework that Nextcloud says they cannot use.

Macha 1y ago
This is not the same functionality that Nextcloud provides though. This is one time upload of manually selected files, not ongoing passive sync of an entire directory tree.
- tadfisher 1y ago
  Ongoing sync is still possible through ACTION_OPEN_DOCUMENT_TREE [0], and using ContentResolver.takePersistableUriPermission [1] to maintain long-lived access to that directory. Enumerating files is slow but that is not a major concern when the use-case is a background sync, and you can drop down to ContentResolver APIs to reduce the number of IPC calls when enumerating. [0]: https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/documents-files#grant-access-directory https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/d... [1]: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/ContentResolver#takePersistableUriPermission(android.net.Uri,%20int) https://developer.android.com/reference/android/content/Cont...
  - apitman 1y ago
    > Enumerating files is slow but that is not a major concern when the use-case is a background sync Slow means it's probably burning a lot of CPU, and that is a problem for background tasks, especially on mobile.
    - tadfisher 1y ago
      No, the call is going through ContentProvider, which happens over Binder IPC, which entails context switching and other I/O overhead. Compared to local file operations (java.io and friends) this is massive; compared to anything else your device does, it's not a big deal at all, and it's not CPU-bound.