4 ms·

This has the inherent danger of becoming a programing tool to push forward the desired agenda of a given government. So, while it may be a cure, it's also a po

by mc32 1y ago

This has the inherent danger of becoming a programing tool to push forward the desired agenda of a given government. So, while it may be a cure, it's also a poison -a greater poison than having a relatively few conspiracy theorists. I'd add, to some extent conspiracy theorists keep government and industry honest. Or at least is skeptical about their honesty --with good reason. Quite a few so called conspiracy theories turned out to be actual conspiracies. And some conspiracy theories turned out to not be conspiracies (like moving away from trolleys when cars became the main mode of transportation) Turned out to be true: MKUltra Biden mental decline Reagan mental decline Epstein blackmail Iraq WMDs Carnivore (syphoning internet comms) Lots of the programs Snowden revealed Steele document Lab theory for Covid etc.

juliushuijnk 1y ago
[flagged]
- lagniappe 1y ago
  You could have picked a more convincing example.
  - esafak 1y ago
    The world is flat, the moon landings did not occur, take your pick.
  - EB-Barrington 1y ago
    [dead]
- throw310822 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
    > who had become US president only thanks to Russia's meddling. Obviously no election outcomes happens "only" because of any individual factor, but it is very plausible that had Russia not meddled in the election, the outcome would've been different. The Clinton emails and subsequent investigation were a big issue for a lot of voters. Those were hacked and released by Russia at the direct request of Donald Trump. > military/ secret services or any other high level co-conspirators ready to seize power- which is what a coup is. There is literally hundreds of pages of evidence of the Trump administration itself conspiring to seize power... Did you read the Jan 6 report?
    - throw310822 1y ago
      > it is very plausible that had Russia not meddled in the election, the outcome would've been different Frankly, the US elections system at this point is often equivalent to the flip of a coin. I think there were multiple elections that were won/ lost for a few thousand votes over 100/150 million voters. So everything is "very plausible" in this situation. > literally hundreds of pages of evidence of the Trump administration itself conspiring to seize power So which high-level co-conspirators are serving life in prison?
      - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
        Re coin flip: yep! Very true. So even small things matter, and having foreign intelligence services hacking and leaking internal documents from one side is far from a "small thing" IMO. > So which high-level co-conspirators are serving life in prison? I thought you said there's no evidence! Are we moving the goal posts to "convicted to life in prison?"
        throw310822 1y ago
        > So even small things matter The real point is not how does a candidate get the few thousand votes that determine his/ her victory; it's the many tens of millions of votes that lie underneath and that make the last few thousand count. The result is a coin flip, but one between two candidates that are almost equally liked (or disliked) by 150 million voters. > Are we moving the goal posts to "convicted to life in prison"? More like using an official proxy to determine the value of those reports. If there is a credible report of a coup (which must involve a plan to illegally take control of the institutions of a country, especially those that have the "monopoly on violence"- National Guard, army, police, etc.) and which is one of the gravest crimes against the state, then there must have been severe convictions at the highest levels.
  - ses1984 1y ago
    Just because trump is too stupid to plan a “real” coup doesn’t meant what he did wasn’t a real coup.
  - icameron 1y ago
    Russia did meddle in the elections to trumps benefit, but that’s not the “only” reason. A coup attempt does not require military involvement. Though there were members of small paramilitary groups present there. If your post requires a throwaway account, you already know it’s wrong.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      > Russia did meddle in the elections to trumps benefit, but that’s not the “only” reason. So the talks of "Russian asset" and "elected thanks to Russia" are conspiracy theories, right? > A coup attempt does not require military involvement A coup is the taking over of the government by groups (military, political, institutional) that are prepared and organised to do so. When violent protesters invade a government building, it's a violent protest. > If your post requires a throwaway account, you already know it’s wrong. It's not a throwaway account.
      - lyu07282 1y ago
        > So the talks of "Russian asset" and "elected thanks to Russia" are conspiracy theories, right? They are, but to be fair to democrats, this blueanon nonsense mostly went away, while republicans still hold on to all their conspiracy theories. When Trump lost it was a stolen election, when Clinton lost it was Russian hackers.
        hydrogen7800 1y ago
        >When Trump lost it was a stolen election, when Clinton lost it was Russian hackers. And an important distinction here: Those attributing Clinton's loss to Russian hackers are referring to Russian propaganda efforts to influence the decisions of voters, not that Russia actually tampered with the vote tallies. Those who believe the stolen 2020 election theory believe that the votes were actually tampered with. One of these has ample evidence, the other has none.
        throw310822 1y ago
        I agree that many right-wing conspiracy theories are completely unhinged, while the corresponding left-wing ones are merely wild exaggerations. On the flip side, the unhinged theories remain mostly fringe, while the wild exaggerations are repeated as well-known facts by most mainstream media. See the assault to the Congress made by a few hundred nobodies, now normally claimed to have been nothing less than a "coup attempt".
  - trealira 1y ago
    There was planning by high-level co-conspirators in the Republican party to keep Trump in power. It was the fake elector plot. The Trump administration attempted to seat fake electors in states Biden had won. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot The storming of the Capitol on January 6th was the last attempt to overturn the election by making sure Pence wouldn't certify the election with the electoral certificates he had. It might have succeeded if Pence had actually just not certified the election. In response to January 6th, Congress passed legislation making the certification purely cetemonial, called the Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022, so it's not an avenue that future auto-coup attempts will be able to try. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/congress-approves-new-election-certification-rules-in-response-to-jan-6 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/congress-approves-new-...
- mantas 1y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if a similar portion didn't believe 2016 or 2024 results either. TBH looking from afar with US election system any election seems questionable. If my country had no mandatory voter ID, I wouldn't trust our elections either. That voters count jump in 2020 election that does not match election-over-election pattern is weird too.
  - phillipcarter 1y ago
    Goodness gracious, you should just plug your questions into ChatGPT with search mode on and you'll already get most of your concerns addressed. The question is: do you want to believe conspiracy theories or not?
    - mantas 1y ago
      Eh... ChatGPT is probably the worst of both worlds. Even if we skip hallucinations. First, it's not hard for fake content (e.g. russian propaganda) make into it. Second, ChatGPT censors wrongthink itself. E.g. at least older versions simply refused to tell jokes about women while happily telling jokes about men. I'm pretty sure that's not only one wrongthink that is „adjusted“.
  - lyu07282 1y ago
    > If my country had no mandatory voter ID, I wouldn't trust our elections either. In terms of conspiracy thinking you have to always be very careful with such statements, ask yourself why liberals oppose voter id laws? Assume no ill intent for the sake of it. Do research for yourself into the subject. Try for example to answer these questions in your research: What is the evidence and magnitude of election fraud? Who benefits from voter id laws and why? It's one thing to be convinced of something that sounds like common sense, but you should at least try to understand the other side of the arguments. I like how this thread turned into such a perfect meta demonstration of the article. At the end of the day you can't force people to be curious, they won't research for themselves, they likely lack the media literacy to do so anyway. They are just never exposed to the counter arguments from someone they aren't already biased against. A chatbot that can be perceived as impartial arbiters of truth in all other aspects of their lives, could indeed be helpful to combat all the nonsense people believe to be true. My calculator was always right, let's ask it about this new 2+2=5 conspiracy.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
intended 1y ago
This tech exists already, and would you rather this not be done publicly? It is also not confirmed that this works the opposite way - ie taking people not predisposed to misinformation and making them believe in it. The crux of the misinformation epidemic is a pipeline where major media enterprises report conspiracies as fact, and then don’t cover counter reports.
hello_computer 1y ago
Hackernews MSNBC types like concentrating power when it suits them. They never think ahead--that they're making little Christmas presents for the "bad guys" when that power changes hands.
- trealira 1y ago
  Yes, a chatbot that asks questions in a friendly manner using the Socratic method is surely going to be how the establishment concentrates power. It's not like promoting skepticism and healthy rational discussion could be beneficial for everyone in society, it has to be yet another way the enemy is screwing you.
  - hello_computer 1y ago
    a chatbot that can barely go a paragraph without hitting an ideological tripwire—like gemini’s “greek philosophers”. for people who grew up in the before times, it’s just a nuisance, but for the kids, this is dark and insidious. so go ahead with your centralizing and your reddit bitch sarcasm, then reeeeee to us there when it all falls into the wrong hands, again.
    - trealira 1y ago
      I find it funny that you're so threatened by and worried about a chatbot falling "into the wrong hands." Whatever you're implying would happen if it fell into the wrong hands would be no worse than the present state of things. > so go ahead with your centralizing and your reddit bitch sarcasm, then reeeeee to us there when it all falls into the wrong hands, again. Lol. Your comment is hard to take seriously. If I'm a Reddit bitch, maybe you should go back to 4chan.
      - hello_computer 1y ago
        > threatened by and worried No, disgusted by the hubris and the stupidity. "De-programmed" is, in actuality, programming for a different agenda. Shouldn't be programming or de-programming anybody. If one group is de-programming with OpenAI, in time, another group will be de-programming with Tay. It is all abomination.
arp242 1y ago
> I'd add, to some extent conspiracy theorists keep government and industry honest No one claims conspiracies never happen, but what conspiracy theorists bang on about is mostly just noise. If anything, conspiracy theories make easier for people to hide actual conspiracies, because there's just so much nonsense to filter out. This is true across the board: e.g. Q-Anon makes tracking down ACTUAL child sex trafficking harder. Or: if I wanted to keep children in a sex dungeon then I'd do it in a pizza restaurant. And if I wanted to keep something secret but is on the verge of being found out, then I'd leak it to a known bullshitter (Alex Jones, David Icke, Trump-adjacent people, etc.) first and they'll mix in all sorts of bollocks and just confuse everything.

by mc32 1y ago

juliushuijnk 1y ago

[flagged]

lagniappe 1y ago
You could have picked a more convincing example.
- esafak 1y ago
  The world is flat, the moon landings did not occur, take your pick.
- EB-Barrington 1y ago
  [dead]
throw310822 1y ago
[flagged]
- sorcerer-mar 1y ago
  > who had become US president only thanks to Russia's meddling. Obviously no election outcomes happens "only" because of any individual factor, but it is very plausible that had Russia not meddled in the election, the outcome would've been different. The Clinton emails and subsequent investigation were a big issue for a lot of voters. Those were hacked and released by Russia at the direct request of Donald Trump. > military/ secret services or any other high level co-conspirators ready to seize power- which is what a coup is. There is literally hundreds of pages of evidence of the Trump administration itself conspiring to seize power... Did you read the Jan 6 report?
  - throw310822 1y ago
    > it is very plausible that had Russia not meddled in the election, the outcome would've been different Frankly, the US elections system at this point is often equivalent to the flip of a coin. I think there were multiple elections that were won/ lost for a few thousand votes over 100/150 million voters. So everything is "very plausible" in this situation. > literally hundreds of pages of evidence of the Trump administration itself conspiring to seize power So which high-level co-conspirators are serving life in prison?
    - sorcerer-mar 1y ago
      Re coin flip: yep! Very true. So even small things matter, and having foreign intelligence services hacking and leaking internal documents from one side is far from a "small thing" IMO. > So which high-level co-conspirators are serving life in prison? I thought you said there's no evidence! Are we moving the goal posts to "convicted to life in prison?"
      - throw310822 1y ago
        > So even small things matter The real point is not how does a candidate get the few thousand votes that determine his/ her victory; it's the many tens of millions of votes that lie underneath and that make the last few thousand count. The result is a coin flip, but one between two candidates that are almost equally liked (or disliked) by 150 million voters. > Are we moving the goal posts to "convicted to life in prison"? More like using an official proxy to determine the value of those reports. If there is a credible report of a coup (which must involve a plan to illegally take control of the institutions of a country, especially those that have the "monopoly on violence"- National Guard, army, police, etc.) and which is one of the gravest crimes against the state, then there must have been severe convictions at the highest levels.
- ses1984 1y ago
  Just because trump is too stupid to plan a “real” coup doesn’t meant what he did wasn’t a real coup.
- icameron 1y ago
  Russia did meddle in the elections to trumps benefit, but that’s not the “only” reason. A coup attempt does not require military involvement. Though there were members of small paramilitary groups present there. If your post requires a throwaway account, you already know it’s wrong.
  - throw310822 1y ago
    > Russia did meddle in the elections to trumps benefit, but that’s not the “only” reason. So the talks of "Russian asset" and "elected thanks to Russia" are conspiracy theories, right? > A coup attempt does not require military involvement A coup is the taking over of the government by groups (military, political, institutional) that are prepared and organised to do so. When violent protesters invade a government building, it's a violent protest. > If your post requires a throwaway account, you already know it’s wrong. It's not a throwaway account.
    - lyu07282 1y ago
      > So the talks of "Russian asset" and "elected thanks to Russia" are conspiracy theories, right? They are, but to be fair to democrats, this blueanon nonsense mostly went away, while republicans still hold on to all their conspiracy theories. When Trump lost it was a stolen election, when Clinton lost it was Russian hackers.
      - hydrogen7800 1y ago
        >When Trump lost it was a stolen election, when Clinton lost it was Russian hackers. And an important distinction here: Those attributing Clinton's loss to Russian hackers are referring to Russian propaganda efforts to influence the decisions of voters, not that Russia actually tampered with the vote tallies. Those who believe the stolen 2020 election theory believe that the votes were actually tampered with. One of these has ample evidence, the other has none.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        I agree that many right-wing conspiracy theories are completely unhinged, while the corresponding left-wing ones are merely wild exaggerations. On the flip side, the unhinged theories remain mostly fringe, while the wild exaggerations are repeated as well-known facts by most mainstream media. See the assault to the Congress made by a few hundred nobodies, now normally claimed to have been nothing less than a "coup attempt".
- trealira 1y ago
  There was planning by high-level co-conspirators in the Republican party to keep Trump in power. It was the fake elector plot. The Trump administration attempted to seat fake electors in states Biden had won. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot The storming of the Capitol on January 6th was the last attempt to overturn the election by making sure Pence wouldn't certify the election with the electoral certificates he had. It might have succeeded if Pence had actually just not certified the election. In response to January 6th, Congress passed legislation making the certification purely cetemonial, called the Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Improvement Act of 2022, so it's not an avenue that future auto-coup attempts will be able to try. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/congress-approves-new-election-certification-rules-in-response-to-jan-6 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/congress-approves-new-...
mantas 1y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if a similar portion didn't believe 2016 or 2024 results either. TBH looking from afar with US election system any election seems questionable. If my country had no mandatory voter ID, I wouldn't trust our elections either. That voters count jump in 2020 election that does not match election-over-election pattern is weird too.
- phillipcarter 1y ago
  Goodness gracious, you should just plug your questions into ChatGPT with search mode on and you'll already get most of your concerns addressed. The question is: do you want to believe conspiracy theories or not?
  - mantas 1y ago
    Eh... ChatGPT is probably the worst of both worlds. Even if we skip hallucinations. First, it's not hard for fake content (e.g. russian propaganda) make into it. Second, ChatGPT censors wrongthink itself. E.g. at least older versions simply refused to tell jokes about women while happily telling jokes about men. I'm pretty sure that's not only one wrongthink that is „adjusted“.
- lyu07282 1y ago
  > If my country had no mandatory voter ID, I wouldn't trust our elections either. In terms of conspiracy thinking you have to always be very careful with such statements, ask yourself why liberals oppose voter id laws? Assume no ill intent for the sake of it. Do research for yourself into the subject. Try for example to answer these questions in your research: What is the evidence and magnitude of election fraud? Who benefits from voter id laws and why? It's one thing to be convinced of something that sounds like common sense, but you should at least try to understand the other side of the arguments. I like how this thread turned into such a perfect meta demonstration of the article. At the end of the day you can't force people to be curious, they won't research for themselves, they likely lack the media literacy to do so anyway. They are just never exposed to the counter arguments from someone they aren't already biased against. A chatbot that can be perceived as impartial arbiters of truth in all other aspects of their lives, could indeed be helpful to combat all the nonsense people believe to be true. My calculator was always right, let's ask it about this new 2+2=5 conspiracy.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

intended 1y ago

This tech exists already, and would you rather this not be done publicly? It is also not confirmed that this works the opposite way - ie taking people not predisposed to misinformation and making them believe in it. The crux of the misinformation epidemic is a pipeline where major media enterprises report conspiracies as fact, and then don’t cover counter reports.

hello_computer 1y ago

Hackernews MSNBC types like concentrating power when it suits them. They never think ahead--that they're making little Christmas presents for the "bad guys" when that power changes hands.

trealira 1y ago
Yes, a chatbot that asks questions in a friendly manner using the Socratic method is surely going to be how the establishment concentrates power. It's not like promoting skepticism and healthy rational discussion could be beneficial for everyone in society, it has to be yet another way the enemy is screwing you.
- hello_computer 1y ago
  a chatbot that can barely go a paragraph without hitting an ideological tripwire—like gemini’s “greek philosophers”. for people who grew up in the before times, it’s just a nuisance, but for the kids, this is dark and insidious. so go ahead with your centralizing and your reddit bitch sarcasm, then reeeeee to us there when it all falls into the wrong hands, again.
  - trealira 1y ago
    I find it funny that you're so threatened by and worried about a chatbot falling "into the wrong hands." Whatever you're implying would happen if it fell into the wrong hands would be no worse than the present state of things. > so go ahead with your centralizing and your reddit bitch sarcasm, then reeeeee to us there when it all falls into the wrong hands, again. Lol. Your comment is hard to take seriously. If I'm a Reddit bitch, maybe you should go back to 4chan.
    - hello_computer 1y ago
      > threatened by and worried No, disgusted by the hubris and the stupidity. "De-programmed" is, in actuality, programming for a different agenda. Shouldn't be programming or de-programming anybody. If one group is de-programming with OpenAI, in time, another group will be de-programming with Tay. It is all abomination.

arp242 1y ago

> I'd add, to some extent conspiracy theorists keep government and industry honest No one claims conspiracies never happen, but what conspiracy theorists bang on about is mostly just noise. If anything, conspiracy theories make easier for people to hide actual conspiracies, because there's just so much nonsense to filter out. This is true across the board: e.g. Q-Anon makes tracking down ACTUAL child sex trafficking harder. Or: if I wanted to keep children in a sex dungeon then I'd do it in a pizza restaurant. And if I wanted to keep something secret but is on the verge of being found out, then I'd leak it to a known bullshitter (Alex Jones, David Icke, Trump-adjacent people, etc.) first and they'll mix in all sorts of bollocks and just confuse everything.