8 ms·

Depends how you use it: I suspect people want their entire photo folders mirrored into Nextcloud from the device, which would fit under the "backup utility" cat

by pjc50 2y ago

Depends how you use it: I suspect people want their entire photo folders mirrored into Nextcloud from the device, which would fit under the "backup utility" category. > what they actually need seems to be a massive user positive So positive for the user that they filed a bug report about it?

llm_nerd 2y ago
It is a long-standing policy, not a "bug"[1]. Further it isn't the users complaining, it's a company of a fringe "cloud" product. I'm going to be gentle here and say their app looks incredibly shitty, and I suspect they saw an opportunity to get some free press on the "Google the monopolist" angle. >I suspect people want their entire photo folders mirrored into Nextcloud from the device That isn't remotely the contention, nor do photos even qualify for this as they use a different API. Further, the reason this company gives for refusing to use the obviously more suitable structured storage API is that they don't want their files -- presumably mirrored from the cloud storage -- visible to other apps. Their complaint is technical nonsense and doesn't pass an ounce of scrutiny. The argument by this company is nonsensical, and their argument seems to be "we did it this way before and we don't want to change". Firstly they can have their own app storage without granting access to any other app, and they can go through a system UI process to get access to additional folders (for instance "I want to back up my WhatsApp folder to this cloud provider"). They argue against the latter because they seem to think it somehow reveals the former, but that isn't the case whatsoever. [1] - Well it's a bug in the Nextcloud product where they seem to just ignore that the instance lacks a permission
- pjc50 2y ago
  It is the users complaining, or rather specifically a user: https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14135 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14135
  - llm_nerd 2y ago
    The user is complaining that the app isn't using the proper APIs. For instance in the case of the "exactly" guy, the app would use structured storage APIs to let the user grant permissions to backup their WhatsApp folder. Instead of fixing their app the company instead whines to the press and gives technically nonsensical rationale for why they can't just do the work necessary because "we did it this way before and they let us for a while, so..."
    - winkeltripel 2y ago
      9 years of the api working, then Google shuts them down. I expect an interface to be consistent after working for 9 years. I think they're trying to keep their story simple, for the sake of clarity. I believe the nextcloud team when they say they need the permission. Part of the issue is that nextcloud has many use cases, including ones where your files don't get synced to your mobile device until you touch the file, replacing them with a reference to a file. It's cool cause you can access and manage a tb of pictures or documents from a 64gb android.
      - deng 2y ago
        > I believe the nextcloud team when they say they need the permission. I don't (and I do use NC). The sentence "SAF cannot be used, as it is for sharing/exposing our files to other apps" is simply wrong and llm_nerd is right that SAF should be able to handle that use case,see https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/documents-files#grant-access-directory https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/d... There are some restrictions regarding which directories you can access, but for most use-cases it should be perfectly fine. It's also not that this should come as a surprise to them. In fact, there's an issue about this from the NC team themselves from August '22: https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/10123 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/10123 Why they still think SAF cannot be used is a mystery to me.
      - threeseed 2y ago
        > I expect an interface to be consistent after working for 9 years Even if that interface is insecure and harmful to users ? As an industry we've learnt a lot about how apps siphon and sell your data. And I appreciate this probably doesn't apply to NextCloud but it can be difficult to build an API that is flexible and secure so you will get casualties.
- traverseda 2y ago
  I'm a user. I install through fdroid, but I am complaining. This also makes corporate roll-outs more difficult.
deng 2y ago
> I suspect people want their entire photo folders mirrored into Nextcloud from the device, which would fit under the "backup utility" category. Exactly. Many people use Nextcloud's auto-upload to backup important data from their phone. In addition to photos, I use it to backup FreeOTP and WhatsApp, for instance. This does not work with the version from Google Play, see https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14334 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14334 EDIT: After some research, I think even that use case should be possible with SAF, you just need to move your backups to external storage that you can access via SAF.
blkhawk 2y ago
yes, exactly - it has an "AutoUpload" function that worked super well. Make a photo and by the time you put the phone down its on a folder on your desktop read for say putting something on eBay. it stopped working well or at all over the last 2 years or so. I think if a simple "allow access to the photo folder" would have fixed it they out have used it. maybe it doesn't get the events when a photo is made?
Ajedi32 2y ago
> people want their entire photo folders mirrored Then request access to their media folder. You don't need full disk access.
- hashhar 2y ago
  WhatsApp media lives in separate folder. PDFs that I download live in downloads folder (which you can't give access to for some reason anyway). Music lives elsewhere and so on.
  - Ajedi32 2y ago
    You can grant permission to multiple folders you know. Downloads is blocked because it would include everything you download, possibly including private stuff you don't want other apps to access. Just save the stuff that you want synced to a different folder. I guess if you really want everything synced (e.g. doing a full device backup) then that would fall under Google's exception for backup apps and it would be allowed full disk access. Those are kinda separate use cases though. Maybe Nextcloud could make a separate "Nextcloud Device Backup" app which does that?
    - daurentius523 2y ago
      > You can grant permission to multiple folders you know. I had to deal with another application (the only one that I found that for using my webdav solution does not automatically want to collect data and send it somewhere else) which instead of make backup of SD card was backup one folder - set server, password etc. for ONE folder PER backup action. - If you want to lose time for 2 hours, please do yourself this questionable favour but I do not want to do that because some "wise" people cannot comprehend that some people want copy of entire thing, not one folder, entire thing. > Downloads is blocked because it would include everything you download, possibly including private stuff you don't want other apps to access. The point: This is cloud application that connects to server that sits on my desk on NUC. Do you understand that in the (Google)-(Open Source)-(Own Server) the Google part is one that most reasonable people consider not private. > Just save the stuff that you want synced to a different folder. Do you move entire folders or every file each time you download something because app cannot backup it - or do you change app. What if that's the only app that does it privately? > Those are kinda separate use cases though. Maybe it is not system developer job to decide for me that I want to give application the permission to do what I want application to do. It is not system nor developer job to stop owner (administrator) from what owner decides to do. > Maybe Nextcloud could make a separate "Nextcloud Device Backup" app which does that? Maybe competitors should not have permission on deciding what their competitors should do. Google essentially makes everything private so cumbersome to use that it own solution seems easy.

by pjc50 2y ago

llm_nerd 2y ago

It is a long-standing policy, not a "bug"[1]. Further it isn't the users complaining, it's a company of a fringe "cloud" product. I'm going to be gentle here and say their app looks incredibly shitty, and I suspect they saw an opportunity to get some free press on the "Google the monopolist" angle. >I suspect people want their entire photo folders mirrored into Nextcloud from the device That isn't remotely the contention, nor do photos even qualify for this as they use a different API. Further, the reason this company gives for refusing to use the obviously more suitable structured storage API is that they don't want their files -- presumably mirrored from the cloud storage -- visible to other apps. Their complaint is technical nonsense and doesn't pass an ounce of scrutiny. The argument by this company is nonsensical, and their argument seems to be "we did it this way before and we don't want to change". Firstly they can have their own app storage without granting access to any other app, and they can go through a system UI process to get access to additional folders (for instance "I want to back up my WhatsApp folder to this cloud provider"). They argue against the latter because they seem to think it somehow reveals the former, but that isn't the case whatsoever. [1] - Well it's a bug in the Nextcloud product where they seem to just ignore that the instance lacks a permission

pjc50 2y ago
It is the users complaining, or rather specifically a user: https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14135 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14135
- llm_nerd 2y ago
  The user is complaining that the app isn't using the proper APIs. For instance in the case of the "exactly" guy, the app would use structured storage APIs to let the user grant permissions to backup their WhatsApp folder. Instead of fixing their app the company instead whines to the press and gives technically nonsensical rationale for why they can't just do the work necessary because "we did it this way before and they let us for a while, so..."
  - winkeltripel 2y ago
    9 years of the api working, then Google shuts them down. I expect an interface to be consistent after working for 9 years. I think they're trying to keep their story simple, for the sake of clarity. I believe the nextcloud team when they say they need the permission. Part of the issue is that nextcloud has many use cases, including ones where your files don't get synced to your mobile device until you touch the file, replacing them with a reference to a file. It's cool cause you can access and manage a tb of pictures or documents from a 64gb android.
    - deng 2y ago
      > I believe the nextcloud team when they say they need the permission. I don't (and I do use NC). The sentence "SAF cannot be used, as it is for sharing/exposing our files to other apps" is simply wrong and llm_nerd is right that SAF should be able to handle that use case,see https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/documents-files#grant-access-directory https://developer.android.com/training/data-storage/shared/d... There are some restrictions regarding which directories you can access, but for most use-cases it should be perfectly fine. It's also not that this should come as a surprise to them. In fact, there's an issue about this from the NC team themselves from August '22: https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/10123 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/10123 Why they still think SAF cannot be used is a mystery to me.
    - threeseed 2y ago
      > I expect an interface to be consistent after working for 9 years Even if that interface is insecure and harmful to users ? As an industry we've learnt a lot about how apps siphon and sell your data. And I appreciate this probably doesn't apply to NextCloud but it can be difficult to build an API that is flexible and secure so you will get casualties.
traverseda 2y ago
I'm a user. I install through fdroid, but I am complaining. This also makes corporate roll-outs more difficult.

deng 2y ago

> I suspect people want their entire photo folders mirrored into Nextcloud from the device, which would fit under the "backup utility" category. Exactly. Many people use Nextcloud's auto-upload to backup important data from their phone. In addition to photos, I use it to backup FreeOTP and WhatsApp, for instance. This does not work with the version from Google Play, see https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14334 https://github.com/nextcloud/android/issues/14334 EDIT: After some research, I think even that use case should be possible with SAF, you just need to move your backups to external storage that you can access via SAF.

blkhawk 2y ago

yes, exactly - it has an "AutoUpload" function that worked super well. Make a photo and by the time you put the phone down its on a folder on your desktop read for say putting something on eBay. it stopped working well or at all over the last 2 years or so. I think if a simple "allow access to the photo folder" would have fixed it they out have used it. maybe it doesn't get the events when a photo is made?

Ajedi32 2y ago

> people want their entire photo folders mirrored Then request access to their media folder. You don't need full disk access.

hashhar 2y ago
WhatsApp media lives in separate folder. PDFs that I download live in downloads folder (which you can't give access to for some reason anyway). Music lives elsewhere and so on.
- Ajedi32 2y ago
  You can grant permission to multiple folders you know. Downloads is blocked because it would include everything you download, possibly including private stuff you don't want other apps to access. Just save the stuff that you want synced to a different folder. I guess if you really want everything synced (e.g. doing a full device backup) then that would fall under Google's exception for backup apps and it would be allowed full disk access. Those are kinda separate use cases though. Maybe Nextcloud could make a separate "Nextcloud Device Backup" app which does that?
  - daurentius523 2y ago
    > You can grant permission to multiple folders you know. I had to deal with another application (the only one that I found that for using my webdav solution does not automatically want to collect data and send it somewhere else) which instead of make backup of SD card was backup one folder - set server, password etc. for ONE folder PER backup action. - If you want to lose time for 2 hours, please do yourself this questionable favour but I do not want to do that because some "wise" people cannot comprehend that some people want copy of entire thing, not one folder, entire thing. > Downloads is blocked because it would include everything you download, possibly including private stuff you don't want other apps to access. The point: This is cloud application that connects to server that sits on my desk on NUC. Do you understand that in the (Google)-(Open Source)-(Own Server) the Google part is one that most reasonable people consider not private. > Just save the stuff that you want synced to a different folder. Do you move entire folders or every file each time you download something because app cannot backup it - or do you change app. What if that's the only app that does it privately? > Those are kinda separate use cases though. Maybe it is not system developer job to decide for me that I want to give application the permission to do what I want application to do. It is not system nor developer job to stop owner (administrator) from what owner decides to do. > Maybe Nextcloud could make a separate "Nextcloud Device Backup" app which does that? Maybe competitors should not have permission on deciding what their competitors should do. Google essentially makes everything private so cumbersome to use that it own solution seems easy.