6 ms·

Is MySQL becoming less open source? Test cases go internal now

93 points by bytebot 14y ago

koko775 14y ago
So basically, the Java strategy. Killing the alternatives through creating compatibility uncertainty. Oh, man. This doesn't bode well. I hope this drives developers towards using and improving Postgres, but, well, who knows. One can dream! More likely is that it may drive people towards Percona, which I have on good word is a solid professional MySQL branch...or, like Java, people will just stick with the brand. :/ EDIT: adding links for the curious. Percona: http://www.percona.com/ http://www.percona.com/ Background on the Java stuff: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/apache-resigns-from-jcp-in-protest-of-oracle-governance-failures/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/apache... (the difference is that MySQL never did have open governance, so there was nobody to quit in a justified huff)
- malsme 14y ago
  For the majority of developers, it's whatever database server that control panels like cPanel and Plesk choose, and they aren't the sort to switch on a whim.
  - whichdan 14y ago
    For anyone interested: cPanel doesn't officially support PgSQL, and Plesk charges $6-15/mo for their "Power Pack" addon which adds PgSQL support.
- ChuckMcM 14y ago
  I would think one would need to look no further than the Oracle/Google lawsuit and its outcome with respect to Java to see how Oracle will move forward with MySQL.
  - taligent 14y ago
    Java has been greatly improved since Oracle took over the helm. Major improvements to the JVM, an exciting yet stable roadmap, better platform support (in particular on OSX) and a lot more confidence about its future. Oracle has been nothing but a huge positive for the Java platform.
    - koko775 14y ago
      > Oracle has been nothing but a huge positive for the Java platform. For the OpenJDK Java implementation, definitely. For free and open alternatives? No, not at all.
    - batista 14y ago
      While it has been positive indeed, I wouldn't say it "has been nothing but a huge positive". The closing down (of the JCP, the lawsuits, etc) in particular has been a little worrisome.
- Evbn 14y ago
  No one involved with mySQL needs pgsql to improve, they just need a couple of days to learn pg config. Pgsql is already a much more sophisticated and debugged database.
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
So, time for LibreSQL?
- dhimes 14y ago
  or YourSQL
- naner 14y ago
  MariaDB is the free (GPL) branch (actually more of a fork at this point) created by Monty, the primary original author of MySQL.
  - cwisecarver 14y ago
    Is anyone actually using MariaDB in production at a reasonable scale? Our DBAs tried to convince us to switch from MySQL to Maria a few months ago. All of the devs on my team looked around and couldn't find any testimonials, use-cases or benchmarks that weren't done by someone on the Maria dev team. I realize Monty is behind it but I don't really feel like being an early adopter based on fear that some day Oracle might do something bad with MySQL.
    - latimer 14y ago
      I use MariaDB on all of my websites these days, the largest of which tops out at around 5K queries a second. The biggest draw for me was the XtraDB engine (which is also found in Percona Server) which is a replacement for InnoDB. XtraDB performs much better on SSDs and I was able to get over 50% performance gains on some queries with the default settings. This may or may not be applicable to your specific environment, but it is a drop-in replacement so it's very easy to just install it on a test box and stress test it with your current code.
      - AaronBBrown 14y ago
        To be clear, XtraDB is solely developed by Percona. MariaDB has nicely included it, not the other way around.
TheRealDunkirk 14y ago
http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2012/postgresql-is-our-new-default/ http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2012/postgresql-is-our-new-de... Despite the reasons they gave, did they see the writing on the wall that made this the time to make the leap?
LyndsySimon 14y ago
MySQL is as popular as it is because it has been free (as in beer), and relatively easy to set up and use. The time for that has come and gone. MySQL's shortcomings limit its use in many corporate and professional settings, and the alternatives are now much easier to use. If I were looking to become a DBA today, I would study PostgreSQL. Likewise, if I were developing a new web application, MySQL wouldn't even make my list.
- taligent 14y ago
  MySQL is as popular as it is because EVERYONE is using it. Which means that all of the really hard scalability and management problems have already been solved every which way. And all available for free by companies you know and trust e.g. Facebook, Twitter. If I were looking to become a DBA today I wouldn't bother with PostgreSQL at all. I would learn all of the NoSQL databases because that is where all of the interest is right now. Due to the increase use of agile in software development databases need to be flexible with the schema controlled by developers not DBAs.
  - mgkimsal 14y ago
    Or you could, you know, learn multiple things, because very few companies that need scalability are best served by doing everything in only one technology. Or, for that matter, hiring people who only know one technology. There's a hell of a lot of useful stuff to learn (practical and theoretical) from relational databases. NoSQL has some useful ideas too. However, advocating that someone wanting to be considered a "database administrator" only learn/focus on NoSQL - that's just poor advice.
    - taligent 14y ago
      Funny that you chose to reply to me instead of the parent. Learning just PostgreSQL is also poor advice. Most DBAs will already know Oracle and MySQL and my point was that they would be much better advised learning a NoSQL database. Of course if you're a new DBA you should learn a relational database I just fail to see why on earth anybody would recommend PostgreSQL over Oracle/MySQL which are far, far, more popular.
debacle 14y ago
I haven't yet used one of the recent MySQL forks, but I have a feeling the next time I'm using an OSS solution that requires a MySQL variant, I wont be using MySQL.
- abenga 14y ago
  I was recently looking at the alternatives available, and thought that Drizzle [http://www.drizzle.org/ http://www.drizzle.org/] looks really great.
  - dbart 14y ago
    Drizzle is not a drop-in replacement for MySQL. The only real option if you want to replace MySQL without having to change your application code is MariaDB. Drizzle is fine for new projects, but you'd have to massively alter an existing site to get it to work with Drizzle.
    - koko775 14y ago
      I don't think it's fair to say MariaDB is the only real option. The CTO of the company I work at seems to be a pretty firm advocate for Percona.
techtalsky 14y ago
This is a MySQL discussion, but I think it's worth it to say what two things I think keep Postgres from becoming the viable worldwide use-by-default contender that MySQL became: 1. Branding. First and foremost. MySQL had great documentation, an identifiable logo, and a wonderful name that every non-technical person could remember and identify. Postgresql is just, well, it's a horrible nightmare of a name. People would like to think this doesn't matter but: of course it does. 2. A really slick installer for Windows. You could say this is branding and to some extent it is, but MySQL and its admin tools have a really friendly installer that lets intermediate developers without a lot of DB experience get it up and running with their development environments quickly. I admit it's been a while since I used Postgres's but the fit and polish wasn't there.
- ibotty 14y ago
  this comment is not only misplaced, it is (at least partly) wrong as well. postgres has great documentation. and had great documentation for quiet a while. see [1]. [1] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/static/ http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/static/
- jeffdavis 14y ago
  Let's keep this on topic: in what specific ways has postgresql been more open, and how does that lead to a better developer community and greater value for users? I happen to think the postgres docs are great, and they are open and free unlike the MySQL docs. I have tried following one MySQL doc, only to see it change later and have no way to see the old version. Not a problem for postgres. If you have some suggestions for the docs please submit them to the docs mailing list. Postgres also has 15+ years of history in git, which is extremely helpful. Honestly, I don't know where to start. Postgres is an open community project to the core and benefits from that in so many ways.
ilaksh 14y ago
I think MariaDB should be a viable alternative, right?
- dbart 14y ago
  Absolutely. It's been a viable alternative for some time now.
sandGorgon 14y ago
Does someone know of a really good (performance + corner cases) migration tool for MySql - > Postgres. It looks like there are a ton of roll-your-own, but none as good as, say, "git svn clone"
- nantes 14y ago
  I can't really speak to performance or corner cases outside of our (admittedly small) needs, but one of our developers had good luck with mysql2postgres -- https://github.com/maxlapshin/mysql2postgres/ https://github.com/maxlapshin/mysql2postgres/

93 points by bytebot 14y ago

So basically, the Java strategy. Killing the alternatives through creating compatibility uncertainty. Oh, man. This doesn't bode well. I hope this drives developers towards using and improving Postgres, but, well, who knows. One can dream! More likely is that it may drive people towards Percona, which I have on good word is a solid professional MySQL branch...or, like Java, people will just stick with the brand. :/ EDIT: adding links for the curious. Percona: http://www.percona.com/ http://www.percona.com/ Background on the Java stuff: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/apache-resigns-from-jcp-in-protest-of-oracle-governance-failures/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/12/apache... (the difference is that MySQL never did have open governance, so there was nobody to quit in a justified huff)

malsme 14y ago
For the majority of developers, it's whatever database server that control panels like cPanel and Plesk choose, and they aren't the sort to switch on a whim.
- whichdan 14y ago
  For anyone interested: cPanel doesn't officially support PgSQL, and Plesk charges $6-15/mo for their "Power Pack" addon which adds PgSQL support.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
I would think one would need to look no further than the Oracle/Google lawsuit and its outcome with respect to Java to see how Oracle will move forward with MySQL.
- taligent 14y ago
  Java has been greatly improved since Oracle took over the helm. Major improvements to the JVM, an exciting yet stable roadmap, better platform support (in particular on OSX) and a lot more confidence about its future. Oracle has been nothing but a huge positive for the Java platform.
  - koko775 14y ago
    > Oracle has been nothing but a huge positive for the Java platform. For the OpenJDK Java implementation, definitely. For free and open alternatives? No, not at all.
  - batista 14y ago
    While it has been positive indeed, I wouldn't say it "has been nothing but a huge positive". The closing down (of the JCP, the lawsuits, etc) in particular has been a little worrisome.
Evbn 14y ago
No one involved with mySQL needs pgsql to improve, they just need a couple of days to learn pg config. Pgsql is already a much more sophisticated and debugged database.

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago

So, time for LibreSQL?

dhimes 14y ago
or YourSQL
naner 14y ago
MariaDB is the free (GPL) branch (actually more of a fork at this point) created by Monty, the primary original author of MySQL.
- cwisecarver 14y ago
  Is anyone actually using MariaDB in production at a reasonable scale? Our DBAs tried to convince us to switch from MySQL to Maria a few months ago. All of the devs on my team looked around and couldn't find any testimonials, use-cases or benchmarks that weren't done by someone on the Maria dev team. I realize Monty is behind it but I don't really feel like being an early adopter based on fear that some day Oracle might do something bad with MySQL.
  - latimer 14y ago
    I use MariaDB on all of my websites these days, the largest of which tops out at around 5K queries a second. The biggest draw for me was the XtraDB engine (which is also found in Percona Server) which is a replacement for InnoDB. XtraDB performs much better on SSDs and I was able to get over 50% performance gains on some queries with the default settings. This may or may not be applicable to your specific environment, but it is a drop-in replacement so it's very easy to just install it on a test box and stress test it with your current code.
    - AaronBBrown 14y ago
      To be clear, XtraDB is solely developed by Percona. MariaDB has nicely included it, not the other way around.

TheRealDunkirk 14y ago

http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2012/postgresql-is-our-new-default/ http://www.engineyard.com/blog/2012/postgresql-is-our-new-de... Despite the reasons they gave, did they see the writing on the wall that made this the time to make the leap?

LyndsySimon 14y ago

MySQL is as popular as it is because it has been free (as in beer), and relatively easy to set up and use. The time for that has come and gone. MySQL's shortcomings limit its use in many corporate and professional settings, and the alternatives are now much easier to use. If I were looking to become a DBA today, I would study PostgreSQL. Likewise, if I were developing a new web application, MySQL wouldn't even make my list.

taligent 14y ago
MySQL is as popular as it is because EVERYONE is using it. Which means that all of the really hard scalability and management problems have already been solved every which way. And all available for free by companies you know and trust e.g. Facebook, Twitter. If I were looking to become a DBA today I wouldn't bother with PostgreSQL at all. I would learn all of the NoSQL databases because that is where all of the interest is right now. Due to the increase use of agile in software development databases need to be flexible with the schema controlled by developers not DBAs.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  Or you could, you know, learn multiple things, because very few companies that need scalability are best served by doing everything in only one technology. Or, for that matter, hiring people who only know one technology. There's a hell of a lot of useful stuff to learn (practical and theoretical) from relational databases. NoSQL has some useful ideas too. However, advocating that someone wanting to be considered a "database administrator" only learn/focus on NoSQL - that's just poor advice.
  - taligent 14y ago
    Funny that you chose to reply to me instead of the parent. Learning just PostgreSQL is also poor advice. Most DBAs will already know Oracle and MySQL and my point was that they would be much better advised learning a NoSQL database. Of course if you're a new DBA you should learn a relational database I just fail to see why on earth anybody would recommend PostgreSQL over Oracle/MySQL which are far, far, more popular.

debacle 14y ago

I haven't yet used one of the recent MySQL forks, but I have a feeling the next time I'm using an OSS solution that requires a MySQL variant, I wont be using MySQL.

abenga 14y ago
I was recently looking at the alternatives available, and thought that Drizzle [http://www.drizzle.org/ http://www.drizzle.org/] looks really great.
- dbart 14y ago
  Drizzle is not a drop-in replacement for MySQL. The only real option if you want to replace MySQL without having to change your application code is MariaDB. Drizzle is fine for new projects, but you'd have to massively alter an existing site to get it to work with Drizzle.
  - koko775 14y ago
    I don't think it's fair to say MariaDB is the only real option. The CTO of the company I work at seems to be a pretty firm advocate for Percona.

techtalsky 14y ago

This is a MySQL discussion, but I think it's worth it to say what two things I think keep Postgres from becoming the viable worldwide use-by-default contender that MySQL became: 1. Branding. First and foremost. MySQL had great documentation, an identifiable logo, and a wonderful name that every non-technical person could remember and identify. Postgresql is just, well, it's a horrible nightmare of a name. People would like to think this doesn't matter but: of course it does. 2. A really slick installer for Windows. You could say this is branding and to some extent it is, but MySQL and its admin tools have a really friendly installer that lets intermediate developers without a lot of DB experience get it up and running with their development environments quickly. I admit it's been a while since I used Postgres's but the fit and polish wasn't there.

ibotty 14y ago
this comment is not only misplaced, it is (at least partly) wrong as well. postgres has great documentation. and had great documentation for quiet a while. see [1]. [1] http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/static/ http://www.postgresql.org/docs/7.3/static/
jeffdavis 14y ago
Let's keep this on topic: in what specific ways has postgresql been more open, and how does that lead to a better developer community and greater value for users? I happen to think the postgres docs are great, and they are open and free unlike the MySQL docs. I have tried following one MySQL doc, only to see it change later and have no way to see the old version. Not a problem for postgres. If you have some suggestions for the docs please submit them to the docs mailing list. Postgres also has 15+ years of history in git, which is extremely helpful. Honestly, I don't know where to start. Postgres is an open community project to the core and benefits from that in so many ways.

ilaksh 14y ago

I think MariaDB should be a viable alternative, right?

dbart 14y ago
Absolutely. It's been a viable alternative for some time now.

sandGorgon 14y ago

Does someone know of a really good (performance + corner cases) migration tool for MySql - > Postgres. It looks like there are a ton of roll-your-own, but none as good as, say, "git svn clone"

nantes 14y ago
I can't really speak to performance or corner cases outside of our (admittedly small) needs, but one of our developers had good luck with mysql2postgres -- https://github.com/maxlapshin/mysql2postgres/ https://github.com/maxlapshin/mysql2postgres/