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When I read about terrible things done in a group like this, my first thought is: would I have done the right thing? I like to think I'm a good person, but the

When I read about terrible things done in a group like this, my first thought is: would I have done the right thing? I like to think I'm a good person, but these people probably do, too. It sounds like there's something rotten in the culture of the special forces that encouraged or at least overlooked these actions. What would I have done if I had been there? Would I have stood up against people I saw as my brothers in arms? Before anyone gets this twisted, this is not an excuse of their behavior or saying that it should be discounted.

exe34 1y ago
> something rotten in the culture of the special forces that encouraged or at least overlooked these actions I suspect it's the price of having the best killers on Earth. They necessarily have to compromise on something else.
beloch 1y ago
Soldiers are not trained to do police work, yet that's what many are asked to do. An informant provides a tip that someone is manufacturing IED's, so soldiers are sent to investigate. They're not trained for that. Worse yet, they're the targets of the crime they're investigating. Police are not typically asked to investigate an attempt on their own lives for good reason. Even with appropriate training and when investigating crimes that do not target themselves, police are often guilty of abuses. In an occupation, the sheer numbers involved would guarantee abuses even if it were police operating under ideal conditions. It is usually not feasible to conduct military operations with a huge force of trained police officers. However, even with people of the wrong background investigating without detachment, there should be an expectation for a culture of conscientiousness. That's the truly shocking thing about this article. Soldiers were put into a situation where things were expected to go wrong, but the attitude from command was to let it go wrong gleefully and to help cover it up afterwards. There was a complete surrender to inhumanity, on the part of command, before the conflict even started. That's what is truly reprehensible. Perhaps we must forgive people for doing bad things in the moment and under duress, but there should be no forgiveness for those who do it happily, daily, and without complaint. This was a failure of command even more than it was a failure of the soldiers who committed crimes.
- tartoran 1y ago
  I don't buy that, nobody with a shred of humanity shoots handcuffed kids in the back of their heads. Something is wrong with these people as well as with the ones who are protecting them.
  - pyuser583 1y ago
    People used to murder their own children undesired a children as a form of population control. It was normal and expected. Murdering defeated enemies, and their children was equally normal and expected. We live in such a wonderful age that we can easily forget many “unthinkable” things are the default of humanity.
    - tartoran 1y ago
      That doesn't excuse current behavior. We want to live in a world where that does not happen. Do you not? Also in this case it wasn't expected of these special forces to behave this way, they take the liberty to commit atrocities out of pure pleasure.
      - pyuser583 1y ago
        No but we need to address the fact that in conditions of warfare, this is the human default. It starts it training, warning soldiers they will be tempted to commit war crimes. Looking at case studies where the “norm” has been averted. When it comes to punishing offenders, you have to be very careful not to punish only those who speak out.
  - sandspar 1y ago
    Human beings have unfathomed depths. You don't know how you'd react under the same pressures. Like, unless you've been there, you simply don't know. Our behavior under extreme stress is unpredictable, even to ourselves. That's the hard part about prison or homelessness or war: it shows you parts of yourself that you wish didn't exist. You're writing this guy off as un-human. I think that's a mistake. If we accept the full complexity of normal human potential, including our own destructive capacity, then we can put systems in place to guard against it. That's why the original commenter said it's the command's fault. They should have constructed a system where something like this is impossible. Military systems must be built to absorb the reality that soldiers will act in contradiction to both their training and their self-concept. Only by accepting moral volatility as an expected input can a military system anticipate the full range of its own possible breakdowns.
psunavy03 1y ago
Keep in mind that a good part of the reason why this came to light is SAS troopers doing the right thing and testifying against the accused.
nashashmi 1y ago
Is there anything you could blow the whistle on right now? If yes, and you are not blowing the whistle, then then answer is no you could not do the right thing. It also means you did not come forward to do the right thing then either. If you can’t think of anything that you could blow the whistle on, then chances are you were the one who did wrong and were found out about it. If neither is the case, then you are either oblivious or you are a snitch who didn’t let anything slide. Come up with a list of reasons why you did not come forward. Don’t belittle your crimes either.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
buyucu 1y ago
the easiest way of doing the right thing is not enlisting in evil organizations.

exe34 1y ago

> something rotten in the culture of the special forces that encouraged or at least overlooked these actions I suspect it's the price of having the best killers on Earth. They necessarily have to compromise on something else.

beloch 1y ago

Soldiers are not trained to do police work, yet that's what many are asked to do. An informant provides a tip that someone is manufacturing IED's, so soldiers are sent to investigate. They're not trained for that. Worse yet, they're the targets of the crime they're investigating. Police are not typically asked to investigate an attempt on their own lives for good reason. Even with appropriate training and when investigating crimes that do not target themselves, police are often guilty of abuses. In an occupation, the sheer numbers involved would guarantee abuses even if it were police operating under ideal conditions. It is usually not feasible to conduct military operations with a huge force of trained police officers. However, even with people of the wrong background investigating without detachment, there should be an expectation for a culture of conscientiousness. That's the truly shocking thing about this article. Soldiers were put into a situation where things were expected to go wrong, but the attitude from command was to let it go wrong gleefully and to help cover it up afterwards. There was a complete surrender to inhumanity, on the part of command, before the conflict even started. That's what is truly reprehensible. Perhaps we must forgive people for doing bad things in the moment and under duress, but there should be no forgiveness for those who do it happily, daily, and without complaint. This was a failure of command even more than it was a failure of the soldiers who committed crimes.

tartoran 1y ago
I don't buy that, nobody with a shred of humanity shoots handcuffed kids in the back of their heads. Something is wrong with these people as well as with the ones who are protecting them.
- pyuser583 1y ago
  People used to murder their own children undesired a children as a form of population control. It was normal and expected. Murdering defeated enemies, and their children was equally normal and expected. We live in such a wonderful age that we can easily forget many “unthinkable” things are the default of humanity.
  - tartoran 1y ago
    That doesn't excuse current behavior. We want to live in a world where that does not happen. Do you not? Also in this case it wasn't expected of these special forces to behave this way, they take the liberty to commit atrocities out of pure pleasure.
    - pyuser583 1y ago
      No but we need to address the fact that in conditions of warfare, this is the human default. It starts it training, warning soldiers they will be tempted to commit war crimes. Looking at case studies where the “norm” has been averted. When it comes to punishing offenders, you have to be very careful not to punish only those who speak out.
- sandspar 1y ago
  Human beings have unfathomed depths. You don't know how you'd react under the same pressures. Like, unless you've been there, you simply don't know. Our behavior under extreme stress is unpredictable, even to ourselves. That's the hard part about prison or homelessness or war: it shows you parts of yourself that you wish didn't exist. You're writing this guy off as un-human. I think that's a mistake. If we accept the full complexity of normal human potential, including our own destructive capacity, then we can put systems in place to guard against it. That's why the original commenter said it's the command's fault. They should have constructed a system where something like this is impossible. Military systems must be built to absorb the reality that soldiers will act in contradiction to both their training and their self-concept. Only by accepting moral volatility as an expected input can a military system anticipate the full range of its own possible breakdowns.

psunavy03 1y ago

Keep in mind that a good part of the reason why this came to light is SAS troopers doing the right thing and testifying against the accused.

nashashmi 1y ago

Is there anything you could blow the whistle on right now? If yes, and you are not blowing the whistle, then then answer is no you could not do the right thing. It also means you did not come forward to do the right thing then either. If you can’t think of anything that you could blow the whistle on, then chances are you were the one who did wrong and were found out about it. If neither is the case, then you are either oblivious or you are a snitch who didn’t let anything slide. Come up with a list of reasons why you did not come forward. Don’t belittle your crimes either.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

buyucu 1y ago

the easiest way of doing the right thing is not enlisting in evil organizations.