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Gig Companies Violate Workers Rights
- palmotea 1y ago[flagged]
- nine_zeros 1y agoYeah, workers can be property too amirite? /s
- lenerdenator 1y agoYou don't want that. Worker rights are a type of human right. If you just have property rights and no human rights, and have everything dictated by the ability to satisfy a market participant's desire to wealth, you're going to have a lot of horrible things justified by that desire to create wealth. Murder-for-hire, for example, is a very, very profitable venture. You have a person with a $500 firearm and a magazine with $10 worth of ammunition in it, and get a return of many thousands of dollars on the first instance of service.
- AlexandrB 1y ago> If you just have property rights and no human rights "Property rights" is a human right. It's in the UN declaration of human rights (Article 17): https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
- lenerdenator 1y agoAnd we're throwing out the rest of them and replacing all of them with human rights, in this instance.
- evanjrowley 1y ago>Murder-for-hire Not if a person's life is considered their property. If the concept of property is re-defined to include non-tangible concepts, like time, health, wellbeing, etc. then it probably defeats a lot of arguments against "we should only have property rights and not worker's rights" I'd like to know what fundamentally distinguishes property rights such that successful attempts to re-define them produces a significantly different outcome. If you look at who enforces property rights vs. who enforces workers rights, a re-definition of property would absolutely radical. Like, imagine if local cops had a framework for enforcing OSHA-style labor rules on the basis of worker injuries constituting a property rights violation of the employee. Imagine if your boss didn't pressure you to work overtime because it could result in them being arrested. Imagine if the time required for you to wait at the DMV was a potential violation of the 4th amendment. The world would be so different lol.
- lenerdenator 1y agoI am more likely to hear my cat greet me tonight in perfect English than society is to redefine property rights in the way you propose. There's money in disrespecting rights, no matter how you define them.
- palmotea 1y ago> If you just have property rights and no human rights, and have everything dictated by the ability to satisfy a market participant's desire to wealth, you're going to have a lot of horrible things justified by that desire to create wealth. I don't see how you'd have a "lot of horrible things." Doesn't the market system optimize for the maximum good, so if the market system produces a thing, isn't that thing good by definition?
- lenerdenator 1y ago> Doesn't the market system optimize for the maximum good, so if the market system produces a thing, isn't that thing good by definition? The market system does not optimize for the maximum good outside of economic theory.
- evanjrowley 1y agoWould such a strategy produce a significantly different outcome when property rights can encompass non-tangible concepts like time, ideas, digital goods, data, attention, and "value"?
- lapcat 1y agoDid someone just reveal their second HN account? Two identical comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43963303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43963303
- SketchySeaBeast 1y agoNow, the real question is - two accounts from the same person, or from a third party pretending to be a lot of accounts?
- AlexandrB 1y agoThey're not quite identical - they swap "workers rights" and "property rights" as well as a few other words. Either it's one person trying to be clever on two accounts or the newer post is someone different trying to be clever in response to the original comment.
- ruined 1y ago[flagged]
- AlexandrB 1y agoThis is like saying "let's improve the house by focusing on the walls and removing superfluous parts like the foundation". What exactly would "worker rights" entail if you can't keep the stuff you earn working because you have no property rights?
- guiriduro 1y ago[flagged]
- qmr 1y ago[flagged]
- ApolloFortyNine 1y ago>Six of the seven companies use algorithms with opaque rules to assign jobs and determine wages, meaning that workers do not know how much they will be paid until after completing the job. This seems like the low hanging fruit that should be resolved immediately. Though Uber does show how much someone will make before taking a ride, I'm not sure how one would legislate forcing a user to only accept a ride if it's profitable for them after taking gas+depreciation of the vehicle into account. And if someone wants to trade life of the vehicle for income now (pretty much no one takes their car to it's manufactured limit, it's usually age that kills it), shouldn't we allow that?
- TuringNYC 1y ago>> Though Uber does show how much someone will make before taking a ride I think the problem was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_mileage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_mileage I took an Uber from Newark Airport an hour south to Princeton NJ -- the Uber driver, which being compensated nicely for that ride, now has to get back an hour north, and no rides are "guaranteed" for this trip, so they go back uncompensated. Traditional Taxi services built in the cost of that return trip, but Uber does not from what I can see.
- harvey9 1y agoIf no driver accepts the job (as there's a good chance of making a loss), does Uber try offering a higher fare?
- TuringNYC 1y ago>> If no driver accepts the job (as there's a good chance of making a loss), does Uber try offering a higher fare? Yes, but one of the problems with these gig platforms is that workers do not consider all the costs and end up seeing the top line instead of bottom line. Many people are unaware of hidden costs such as mileage, wear-and-tear, insurance impacts, etc. Further, some gig workers are so desperate for money that the top line is the only thing that matters at the moment, I empathize with this and it hurts me to think so many fellow citizens get into this spot.
- n_ary 1y agoRobber barrons rob people. The issue with gig economy is that, the provider side is either doing it for some extra cash for as a short stint is fine, but people relying on it for survival do not want to shake the boat as they are desperate and have bills to pay and food to put on the table. Consultants and contractors charge a fixed rate dictated by the work and contract. Gig economy pushes all liabilities on the consultants minus paying for that privilege. The bargaining power is heavily skewed in favor of then platform, hence nothing will change.
- adocomplete 1y agoIn Colorado, a law went into effect at the beginning of 2025 that showed you how much of the actual fare the driver gets. I took an Uber ride to the airport last week and the total cost was ~$98 before tip, and the drivers share of that was reported as ~$41. I don't see how it makes sense that Uber for connecting me to a driver gets close to 60% of the fare, while the driver who does all the work, puts miles onto their car, etc, gets less than half of the fare.
- dingnuts 1y agoExcept at some level you do obviously believe that using the app was worth $57, because you didn't end the story by saying you called a cab company and got a big discount by doing it the old fashioned way. OR could it be that the scheduling, summoning, and advertising infrastructure is actually close to 60% of the cost, and the added convenience of the app is in fact worth the difference in price?
- riffraff 1y agoTaxi could be more expensive than Uber for the same reason AirBnB is cheaper than hotels: they do not respect the same standards (e.g. insurance, worker rights, etc). Not same this is the case, but there's more than convenience embedded in markets.
- ngangaga 1y ago> Except at some level you do obviously believe that using the app was worth $57 That's ridiculous. "because you didn't end the story by saying you called a cab company and got a big discount by doing it the old fashioned way." is just bad-faith weaseling. Uber is worse in every way than the taxi stands that used to be at airports; now you hail a car via an expensive app and have to wait for them to all jockey to where you are if they don't bail on the way. Taxi stands still make the most sense at events and leaving mass transit and that's even before considering the ridiculous cost. Visiting europe felt like a breath of fresh air in comparison—technically they have uber, but there was no point in using it because taxis were so prevalent, reliable, and cheap.
- Extropy_ 1y agoTo what extent is a "gig" considered employment?
- ceejayoz 1y agoCompanies like Uber want to exist on the blurry line between them. Benefits? No, you're an independent contractor. Oh, you want to set your own prices and performance standards, like a contractor does? Nope!
- flkiwi 1y agoGig companies violate a lot of things, though workers' rights may well be at the top of the list. They are profoundly unaccountable. Doordash driver screws up your order (or takes part of it)? They'll credit you via an automated system. It is never, ever, ever the fault of Uber, Lyft, or the rest when something goes wrong, and there are no mechanisms for you, as a customer, to express anything other than transactional frustration other than not using the platform entirely. Given there is real value for me in having someone else do my shopping sometimes, it's unfortunate it's essentially my sole risk if something goes wrong. There is some pushback happening. A significant US grocery chain has recently launched its in-house grocery delivery where I live, and they have been astonishingly good. They have actual customer service, employees driving liveried vehicles. It's a weird throwback and it works.
- egypturnash 1y agoDelivery works so much better for the customer when it's in-house.
- ProllyInfamous 1y agoI used to gig for a bay area startup which connected runners with task seekers (had recently added a bunny to its name...). This was a long time ago, well before they changed their matching system to be more algorythmic/generic. Honestly, my twentysomething brain thought I was making $bigtime$, when in reality I was whoring my life away underbidding even the least-sane of co-giggers. The company consistently sided against its 1099 contractors, often ending arrangements without justification nor input from its workers. To this day, I do not use gig platforms, and despise when family rents in AirBNB neighborhoods (I think quite possibly the worst for humanity Y-Combinator-funded idea). After my couple years scrapping by the bayarea, I eventually completed an IBEW apprenticeship and became a full-time electrician (the antithesis of gig work). Although I still hope things have improved for current gig-workers, I know they likely have not.
- breakyerself 1y agoWould be nice if there was a not for profit version of some of these things.
- SirMaster 1y agoI thought the point of gig is that it's not supposed to be like a full time job. Like that's the entire point of it.
- ceejayoz 1y agoPlenty of folks doing it for full-time hours, and even part-timers deserve some rights.
- econ 1y agoMy theory is that it is counterproductive to have a difference between employees and entrepreneurs. There should be a shall we say type A minimum wage for employees who have full time contracts for unlimited duration, healthcare, unemployment savings, paid sick leave, vacations, pension and are members of a union etc etc. This would be the lowest minimum wage available. Employers should be free to drop any of the above for a fee. You might for example want to hire someone for only 6 months or for the duration of a project. This would both require a considerably higher salary and payments into some unemployment fund. The difference should be such that it is financially exciting for an employer to replace the 6 month contract with one for unlimited time. The main idea is that you need help right now and shouldn't be obstructed with pensions and healthcare puzzles. I just want you to mow my lawn. Maybe mow it at all my 700 properties. What is the difference?
- InitialLastName 1y agoHow about, like just about every other country in the developed world, we build a social safety net and welfare system that isn't tied to employment, and then employers don't have to worry about any of those things that aren't "does this person's labor provide value in excess of the amount I (and/or anyone else) am willing to pay them".
- econ 1y agoYes, that too would dramatically simplify things.
- metalman 1y agothis whole episode is a proof that anything that is too good to be true, remains so though as has also been true forever, driving cab can be a great way to hustle any number of other side hustles, as all passengers are a self selecting group of people open to suggestions of other services.....which the drivers cousin just so happens to provide, which is essentialy a network, within the network.,......which then folds over into turf wars, and towtruck gangs operating in toronto that are proving to be ferociously tenatious even in the face of widespread outrage and police action...,so what will work and is implimentable?