6 ms·

I remember reading about this hack in 2003 wondering if there was any other variations of Linux than just "GNU/Linux". I always hated the term "GNU/Linux" and

I remember reading about this hack in 2003 wondering if there was any other variations of Linux than just "GNU/Linux". I always hated the term "GNU/Linux" and was looking for an excuse to generalize the name to just "Linux" and win a silly argument with some Stallman following, freedom loving zealots (system admins) at work. These days Android (being almost 100% GNU free) is a decent argument against the GNU/Linux name for me (although busybox/uClibc stacks on most routers are pretty close as well).

srl 14y ago
Android is not GNU/Linux. Most desktop and server installations are. "GNU/Linux" is not another name for linux - it's the name of "GNU/Linux". For the record, I find the name a little silly myself (despite being, as you put it, a Stallman-following freedom-loving zealot). But the fact that linux can be used without GNU is not an argument against naming systems where it is used with GNU, GNU/Linux.
- chii 14y ago
  i think RMS just picked the wrong name - GNU is difficult to pronounce. Linux is easy - it rolls off the tongue. If RMS picked something a bit catchier, it'd have taken more mindshare.
  - stephen_g 14y ago
    That, and it was kind of a jerk move to try and put GNU first in the name.
    - kleiba 14y ago
      I think you might be mistaken about the order of events. Originally, the operating system was supposed to just be called "GNU". They developed almost everything except that they bet on the wrong horse with The Hurd. Then Linux came along (Linus used the already available GNU tools to develop Linux) and filled the empty spot. I sort of can understand that Stallman is pissed that he not only realized the necessity, but actually sat down and spent a lot of time and energy developing a project which today is portrayed as being (mostly) Linus' achievement. I mean, interested techies know the deal with GNU and Linux (the kernel). But in the general public? By now the word "Linux" (meaning the full OS) has already gained some attention outside tech circles, but who has ever heard of "GNU"? At the same time when you listen to Stallman talk about this he likes saying things like "the GNU system was just missing the kernel", as if it was a minor contribution. I think calling the OS that is based on both GNU and Linux "GNU/Linux" is fair, but at the same time it really just sounds a bit silly.
    - lloeki 14y ago
      If anything they put GNU first solely because it's 'GNU over Linux', like TCP/IP or Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD.
  - vacri 14y ago
    Not to mention it doesn't use the pronunciation of the existing word 'gnu', so there's additional friction as you explain to the newcomer why it's pronounced a stupid way. I heard a talk by a gnome foundation lawyer, and even she had difficulty sticking to guh-nome. If these were nonsense words it'd be less of a problem.
    - _delirium 14y ago
      I think that's part of it, and another part is that GNU failed to pick up the Linux kernel early on. I think if they had quickly recognized, "hey this is a great way to complete a releasable version of GNU OS, at least for an initial release" and put out a preliminary package of some sort, labeled as the GNU operating system with Linux kernel, people would've called it that. The fact that the distro packaging went the other way—people from the Linux community, not the GNU project, plugged together parts of the unfinished GNU OS and the Linux kernel—meant that it got more associated with the name Linux.
      - KC8ZKF 14y ago
        March 1994: Linus releases Linux 1.0, November 1994: GNU sponsers the creation of Debian.
jlgreco 14y ago
To me, it seems like that just strengthens the argument for using the term GNU/Linux. When GNU was the only userland in town there wasn't much point, but now the extra descriptive power of it is useful.
pjmlp 14y ago
Android is at most, Android/Linux. Linux is just a plain kernel, Stallman is right to refer to Linux based distributions as GNU/Linux, since it is the Linux kernel with GNU tools userland.
- notatoad 14y ago
  He's right, and at the same time wrong. Yes, GNU/Linux includes the GNU tools, but if we start naming the component systems where do we stop? Should i tell people i use Gnome/X.org/GNU/Linux? What makes GNU so special that it deserves to be included in the name? Linux is a nice simple, catchy name that i can use to communicate something to somebody. Putting GNU in front when i say linux does not change what i'm saying.
  - 1SaltwaterC 14y ago
    The FSF folks, and their followers usually, say that besides the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc.) the Linux kernel can't be built without gcc. Of course, there are icc builds, clang builds, although both builds require specific patches, but who am I to argue with all of them. Besides, if the userland is so damn important that they're placing its name in front of the kernel name, where's HURD, 20-something years later? Even DNF managed to deliver. Sometimes I wish a specific distribution, GNU-free, so people can call it LNG (Linux is Not GNU). PS: Gnome is a GNU project. X.org/GNU/Linux?
    - pjmlp 14y ago
      > where's HURD, 20-something years later? Here, http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/ http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdim... Linux development only managed to get so far, because many companies saw it as a way to get a cheap UNIX clone, and allocated developers to it, specially due to the BSD litigation going on at the time. If it wasn't for those companies, Linux would be toy kernel now.
      - 1SaltwaterC 14y ago
mhd 14y ago
There was also "Mastodon Linux"[1], an attempt to both get rid of most of the GNU userland as well as stick to the a.out format (for binary compatibility and glibc-sucks reasons). Always thought it was kinda interesting, but pretty dead due to basically being a one-man project (by David Parsons, nowadays mostly known as the author of the discount markdown parser). [1] http://www.mastodon.biz/ http://www.mastodon.biz/
ricardosallmanu 14y ago
Ι'd јuѕt lіkе tο іntеrјесt fοr а mοmеnt. Wһаt уοu'rе rеfеrrіng tο аѕ Lіnux, іѕ іn fасt, GΝU/Lіnux, οr аѕ Ι'vе rесеntlу tаkеn tο саllіng іt, GΝU рluѕ Lіnux. Lіnux іѕ nοt аn οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm untο іtѕеlf, but rаtһеr аnοtһеr frее сοmрοnеnt οf а fullу funсtіοnіng GΝU ѕуѕtеm mаdе uѕеful bу tһе GΝU сοrеlіbѕ, ѕһеll utіlіtіеѕ аnd vіtаl ѕуѕtеm сοmрοnеntѕ сοmрrіѕіng а full OS аѕ dеfіnеd bу ΡOSΙX. Mаnу сοmрutеr uѕеrѕ run а mοdіfіеd vеrѕіοn οf tһе GΝU ѕуѕtеm еvеrу dау, wіtһοut rеаlіzіng іt. Τһrοugһ а ресulіаr turn οf еvеntѕ, tһе vеrѕіοn οf GΝU wһісһ іѕ wіdеlу uѕеd tοdау іѕ οftеn саllеd "Lіnux", аnd mаnу οf іtѕ uѕеrѕ аrе nοt аwаrе tһаt іt іѕ bаѕісаllу tһе GΝU ѕуѕtеm, dеvеlοреd bу tһе GΝU Ρrοјесt. Τһеrе rеаllу іѕ а Lіnux, аnd tһеѕе реοрlе аrе uѕіng іt, but іt іѕ јuѕt а раrt οf tһе ѕуѕtеm tһеу uѕе. Lіnux іѕ tһе kеrnеl: tһе рrοgrаm іn tһе ѕуѕtеm tһаt аllοсаtеѕ tһе mасһіnе'ѕ rеѕοurсеѕ tο tһе οtһеr рrοgrаmѕ tһаt уοu run. Τһе kеrnеl іѕ аn еѕѕеntіаl раrt οf аn οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm, but uѕеlеѕѕ bу іtѕеlf; іt саn οnlу funсtіοn іn tһе сοntеxt οf а сοmрlеtе οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm. Lіnux іѕ nοrmаllу uѕеd іn сοmbіnаtіοn wіtһ tһе GΝU οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm: tһе wһοlе ѕуѕtеm іѕ bаѕісаllу GΝU wіtһ Lіnux аddеd, οr GΝU/Lіnux. All tһе ѕο-саllеd "Lіnux" dіѕtrіbutіοnѕ аrе rеаllу dіѕtrіbutіοnѕ οf GΝU/Lіnux.
- lucian1900 14y ago
  What's wrong with all your letters "h"?
  - halvsjur 14y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shha
- klez 14y ago
  For those who don't know, this post is becoming a sort of meme on /r/linux . And while I'm all for giving credit where it's due (by calling the OS GNU/Linux), I think, as I said on Reddit, that this copy/paste job devalues the discussion, since it gets tossed anywhere the system is called just Linux, gets downvoted as off-topic and nobody reads it anymore. So it's, IMHO, pointless and counter-effective. Since I noticed people tend to be a little less emotional here then on Reddit, does anybody have any opinion on this?

srl 14y ago

Android is not GNU/Linux. Most desktop and server installations are. "GNU/Linux" is not another name for linux - it's the name of "GNU/Linux". For the record, I find the name a little silly myself (despite being, as you put it, a Stallman-following freedom-loving zealot). But the fact that linux can be used without GNU is not an argument against naming systems where it is used with GNU, GNU/Linux.

chii 14y ago
i think RMS just picked the wrong name - GNU is difficult to pronounce. Linux is easy - it rolls off the tongue. If RMS picked something a bit catchier, it'd have taken more mindshare.
- stephen_g 14y ago
  That, and it was kind of a jerk move to try and put GNU first in the name.
  - kleiba 14y ago
    I think you might be mistaken about the order of events. Originally, the operating system was supposed to just be called "GNU". They developed almost everything except that they bet on the wrong horse with The Hurd. Then Linux came along (Linus used the already available GNU tools to develop Linux) and filled the empty spot. I sort of can understand that Stallman is pissed that he not only realized the necessity, but actually sat down and spent a lot of time and energy developing a project which today is portrayed as being (mostly) Linus' achievement. I mean, interested techies know the deal with GNU and Linux (the kernel). But in the general public? By now the word "Linux" (meaning the full OS) has already gained some attention outside tech circles, but who has ever heard of "GNU"? At the same time when you listen to Stallman talk about this he likes saying things like "the GNU system was just missing the kernel", as if it was a minor contribution. I think calling the OS that is based on both GNU and Linux "GNU/Linux" is fair, but at the same time it really just sounds a bit silly.
  - lloeki 14y ago
    If anything they put GNU first solely because it's 'GNU over Linux', like TCP/IP or Debian's GNU/kFreeBSD.
- vacri 14y ago
  Not to mention it doesn't use the pronunciation of the existing word 'gnu', so there's additional friction as you explain to the newcomer why it's pronounced a stupid way. I heard a talk by a gnome foundation lawyer, and even she had difficulty sticking to guh-nome. If these were nonsense words it'd be less of a problem.
  - _delirium 14y ago
    I think that's part of it, and another part is that GNU failed to pick up the Linux kernel early on. I think if they had quickly recognized, "hey this is a great way to complete a releasable version of GNU OS, at least for an initial release" and put out a preliminary package of some sort, labeled as the GNU operating system with Linux kernel, people would've called it that. The fact that the distro packaging went the other way—people from the Linux community, not the GNU project, plugged together parts of the unfinished GNU OS and the Linux kernel—meant that it got more associated with the name Linux.
    - KC8ZKF 14y ago
      March 1994: Linus releases Linux 1.0, November 1994: GNU sponsers the creation of Debian.

jlgreco 14y ago

To me, it seems like that just strengthens the argument for using the term GNU/Linux. When GNU was the only userland in town there wasn't much point, but now the extra descriptive power of it is useful.

pjmlp 14y ago

Android is at most, Android/Linux. Linux is just a plain kernel, Stallman is right to refer to Linux based distributions as GNU/Linux, since it is the Linux kernel with GNU tools userland.

notatoad 14y ago
He's right, and at the same time wrong. Yes, GNU/Linux includes the GNU tools, but if we start naming the component systems where do we stop? Should i tell people i use Gnome/X.org/GNU/Linux? What makes GNU so special that it deserves to be included in the name? Linux is a nice simple, catchy name that i can use to communicate something to somebody. Putting GNU in front when i say linux does not change what i'm saying.
- 1SaltwaterC 14y ago
  The FSF folks, and their followers usually, say that besides the GNU userland (coreutils, libc, etc.) the Linux kernel can't be built without gcc. Of course, there are icc builds, clang builds, although both builds require specific patches, but who am I to argue with all of them. Besides, if the userland is so damn important that they're placing its name in front of the kernel name, where's HURD, 20-something years later? Even DNF managed to deliver. Sometimes I wish a specific distribution, GNU-free, so people can call it LNG (Linux is Not GNU). PS: Gnome is a GNU project. X.org/GNU/Linux?
  - pjmlp 14y ago
    > where's HURD, 20-something years later? Here, http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdimage/ http://people.debian.org/~sthibault/hurd-i386/installer/cdim... Linux development only managed to get so far, because many companies saw it as a way to get a cheap UNIX clone, and allocated developers to it, specially due to the BSD litigation going on at the time. If it wasn't for those companies, Linux would be toy kernel now.
    - 1SaltwaterC 14y ago

mhd 14y ago

There was also "Mastodon Linux"[1], an attempt to both get rid of most of the GNU userland as well as stick to the a.out format (for binary compatibility and glibc-sucks reasons). Always thought it was kinda interesting, but pretty dead due to basically being a one-man project (by David Parsons, nowadays mostly known as the author of the discount markdown parser). [1] http://www.mastodon.biz/ http://www.mastodon.biz/

ricardosallmanu 14y ago

Ι'd јuѕt lіkе tο іntеrјесt fοr а mοmеnt. Wһаt уοu'rе rеfеrrіng tο аѕ Lіnux, іѕ іn fасt, GΝU/Lіnux, οr аѕ Ι'vе rесеntlу tаkеn tο саllіng іt, GΝU рluѕ Lіnux. Lіnux іѕ nοt аn οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm untο іtѕеlf, but rаtһеr аnοtһеr frее сοmрοnеnt οf а fullу funсtіοnіng GΝU ѕуѕtеm mаdе uѕеful bу tһе GΝU сοrеlіbѕ, ѕһеll utіlіtіеѕ аnd vіtаl ѕуѕtеm сοmрοnеntѕ сοmрrіѕіng а full OS аѕ dеfіnеd bу ΡOSΙX. Mаnу сοmрutеr uѕеrѕ run а mοdіfіеd vеrѕіοn οf tһе GΝU ѕуѕtеm еvеrу dау, wіtһοut rеаlіzіng іt. Τһrοugһ а ресulіаr turn οf еvеntѕ, tһе vеrѕіοn οf GΝU wһісһ іѕ wіdеlу uѕеd tοdау іѕ οftеn саllеd "Lіnux", аnd mаnу οf іtѕ uѕеrѕ аrе nοt аwаrе tһаt іt іѕ bаѕісаllу tһе GΝU ѕуѕtеm, dеvеlοреd bу tһе GΝU Ρrοјесt. Τһеrе rеаllу іѕ а Lіnux, аnd tһеѕе реοрlе аrе uѕіng іt, but іt іѕ јuѕt а раrt οf tһе ѕуѕtеm tһеу uѕе. Lіnux іѕ tһе kеrnеl: tһе рrοgrаm іn tһе ѕуѕtеm tһаt аllοсаtеѕ tһе mасһіnе'ѕ rеѕοurсеѕ tο tһе οtһеr рrοgrаmѕ tһаt уοu run. Τһе kеrnеl іѕ аn еѕѕеntіаl раrt οf аn οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm, but uѕеlеѕѕ bу іtѕеlf; іt саn οnlу funсtіοn іn tһе сοntеxt οf а сοmрlеtе οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm. Lіnux іѕ nοrmаllу uѕеd іn сοmbіnаtіοn wіtһ tһе GΝU οреrаtіng ѕуѕtеm: tһе wһοlе ѕуѕtеm іѕ bаѕісаllу GΝU wіtһ Lіnux аddеd, οr GΝU/Lіnux. All tһе ѕο-саllеd "Lіnux" dіѕtrіbutіοnѕ аrе rеаllу dіѕtrіbutіοnѕ οf GΝU/Lіnux.

lucian1900 14y ago
What's wrong with all your letters "h"?
- halvsjur 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shha
klez 14y ago
For those who don't know, this post is becoming a sort of meme on /r/linux . And while I'm all for giving credit where it's due (by calling the OS GNU/Linux), I think, as I said on Reddit, that this copy/paste job devalues the discussion, since it gets tossed anywhere the system is called just Linux, gets downvoted as off-topic and nobody reads it anymore. So it's, IMHO, pointless and counter-effective. Since I noticed people tend to be a little less emotional here then on Reddit, does anybody have any opinion on this?