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Europe does every thing except the only needed thing, paying up. Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.

by fooker 1y ago

continuational 1y ago
The EU spends as much as the US on Ukraine, and about twice as much if you count refugee aid.
mobtrain 1y ago
Europe „needs to pay up […] for Palestine” .. can you expand on this a little why you'd think that?
- mpweiher 1y ago
  Yeah, funding a terror group that wants to destroy the west seems like a suboptimal use of our wealth.
  - yladiz 1y ago
    You do realize that Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing right, even if they are obviously related? Funding aid for Palestine is not the same as funding Hamas, even if it is impossible to avoid some money being used in ways it’s not supposed to.
    - egisspegis 1y ago
      Should we fund/send aid for russia too? Since, you know, russian army is not the same as russian people. Or maybe we should lift sanctions off russia? I have a hunch a lot of pro-hamas people would love that.
      - yladiz 1y ago
        Are the Russian people being persecuted such that many of them are being bombed in their homes after being given a token amount of time to evacuate, or many are starving to death?
        mpweiher 1y ago
        No they're not. Because the Russians are the actual perpetrators. Just like Hamas is. Israel is defending itself against that aggression. And yeah, being the civilian population of a brutal dictatorship that wages war against neighbor(s) without regard to the well-being of its own population sucks. It's horrible. Should Ukraine stop defending itself because some Russians may get hurt? Should the allies not have conquered Germany and Japan in WW2, because of the toll on the German civilian population? Yes, war is horrible. Pro Tip: don't start wars.
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      Well, in fact it is. First the "official" agencies in charge of most of this aid are practically indistinguishable from Hamas. Second, most if not all the funds get diverted. Third, Hamas appears to enjoy widespread support within the Palestinian population, as shown by the last free elections, which Hamas won handily, as well as opinion polls and public displays. And I am not talking about basic humanitarian aid such as food and medicines. I am talking about the high-level assistance, construction aid. Famously, water pipes paid for by the EU were torn out and used to make rockets and/or rocket launchers.
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    This is tricky. Hamas are definitely bad guys, but it's not right to punish the Palestinians for their actions. The EU broke off formal relations with Hamas in 2007, aid is different though.
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      1. The Palestinians are not being "punished". That would actually be illegal and is not what Israel is doing. Israel is trying to destroy the party that attacked them, which is a legitimate war aim. 2. Being the civilian population of a dictatorship waging a brutal war of annihilation against its neighbors sucks, but is not the fault of the party being attacked and defending itself from said brutal attack. 3. Particularly if that dictatorship very explicitly uses the civilian population as human shields (an actual war crime) and does everything to maximize civilian casualties. Again, this is horrible, but not on the party that was attacked by said dictatorship, but rather on the dictatorship 4. Unlike, say, Nazi Germany, the last election produced a very solid majority for the party that is now running the dictatorship. And polls as well as public display, as much as those can be trusted, show a significant if not overwhelming majority in support of the war of annihilation waged against Israel.
      - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
        So you're telling me that Israel have not been stopping aid from getting into Gaza for three weeks now? That is definitely a war crime. And basically Hamas are fighting a guerrilla war and engaging in acts of terror similar to what the Zionists engaged in pre 48. If that was ok, then surely what Hamas are doing is fine? I'm really confused about your notion that the Israeli state is being attacked. It's more accurate to say that both sides are being attacked, and only one side is engaging in plans to displace one side. The last election was in 2007, half the Gaza population wasn't even born then. By your logic the carbrt bombing of Dresden and nuking Japan were fine, is that a fair summation of your position?
        mpweiher 1y ago
        Yeah, it's not a war crime. Israel is not required to supply its enemy. If the enemy takes control of humanitarian aid shipments, which Hamas has done consistently from the start, the requirement to supply aid no longer applies. So Israel has been over-fulfilling its requirements. And when it stops over-fulfilling people start accusing it of war crimes. You know what's a war crime? - Using your own civilian population as human shields - Commandeering humanitarian aid - Unprovoked attacks targeting civilians - Using hospitals and schools to launch attacks (including rocket attacks) Nothing about war is "OK", and neither is your attempt at framing. War is horrible. Pro-Tip: don't start wars. Free bonus pro-tip: don't start wars and then cry victim when you start losing. However, neither Dresden nor the nuclear attacks were "genocide". Look it up. And last I checked, the consensus is that they were not war crimes, although a vocal minority claims otherwise.
hyperman1 1y ago
It's worse. There is no Europe. There is no one who can decide to pay. It's a marriage of convenience between states that know they are ignored if they speak on their own. But each of them sees all others as a way to amplify their own voice but surely not have an independent thought. It's the penultimate example of trying to herd cats. Europe is good at commerce because it has to, the member states want to sell to each other. In the same way, it's bad at politics, military and vision because it still can afford to.
- izacus 1y ago
  This is a ridiculous falsehood and I'm wondering how you can live in such an obvious delusion. Is this some kind of political bot post?
- mjd 1y ago
  What do you mean here by "penultimate"?
mpweiher 1y ago
- Europe has spent more on Ukraine than the US. - Europe has, sadly, also been the main sender of aid to, effectively, Hamas. I wish they would stop.
- pavlov 1y ago
  Is the answer really to stop sending aid to a million children in distress and for Europe to look the other way as Netanyahu and Trump proceed with the full-scale ethnic cleansing they’ve proudly announced with AI-generated videos? I don’t have an answer, but there has to be some other option.
- BrawnyBadger53 1y ago
  Food and water aid being controversial is a bit ridiculous to me.
  - jalapenos 1y ago
    Must be damn good food and water
  - carstenhag 1y ago
    AFAIK the usual counter point to this is "Hamas could decide to not buy weapons, instead buy water & food. But they don't". - I don't know what is more truthy, just mentioning it.
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    We're saving ca 10 million people from the actual genocide the Arabs have been trying to perpetrate against Israel since at least 1948. There is no genocide, attempted or not, in the other direction. In fact, the IDF has a non-combatant/combatant casualty ratio of around 1.2 : 1, which is by far the best (lowest) in the world. Typical is around 10:1.
thebruce87m 1y ago
Seems like Europe has provided a bigger chunk than the US for Ukraine, unless you think it should be even more than that? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o.amp
- ImJamal 1y ago
  From the article > the US has sent more grants, while the EU sent more loans. While more money has come from the EU they are more in the form of loans which isn't really providing aid in the traditional sense.
  - thebruce87m 1y ago
    Additional nuance: > EU loans will have been on generous terms - so Ukraine will be repaying less interest than it would normally. In some cases, Ukraine isn't expected to pay anything, with repayments coming from revenues from frozen Russian assets.
constantcrying 1y ago
Europe needs to do exactly one thing. Stop paying for everything.
- jalapenos 1y ago
  When do I get some of that everything

Europe does every thing except the only needed thing, paying up. Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.

by fooker 1y ago

Europe does every thing except the only needed thing, paying up. Not just for this, same for finding startups, helping Ukraine or Palestine.

continuational 1y ago

The EU spends as much as the US on Ukraine, and about twice as much if you count refugee aid.

mobtrain 1y ago

Europe „needs to pay up […] for Palestine” .. can you expand on this a little why you'd think that?

mpweiher 1y ago
Yeah, funding a terror group that wants to destroy the west seems like a suboptimal use of our wealth.
- yladiz 1y ago
  You do realize that Hamas and Palestine are not the same thing right, even if they are obviously related? Funding aid for Palestine is not the same as funding Hamas, even if it is impossible to avoid some money being used in ways it’s not supposed to.
  - egisspegis 1y ago
    Should we fund/send aid for russia too? Since, you know, russian army is not the same as russian people. Or maybe we should lift sanctions off russia? I have a hunch a lot of pro-hamas people would love that.
    - yladiz 1y ago
      Are the Russian people being persecuted such that many of them are being bombed in their homes after being given a token amount of time to evacuate, or many are starving to death?
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        No they're not. Because the Russians are the actual perpetrators. Just like Hamas is. Israel is defending itself against that aggression. And yeah, being the civilian population of a brutal dictatorship that wages war against neighbor(s) without regard to the well-being of its own population sucks. It's horrible. Should Ukraine stop defending itself because some Russians may get hurt? Should the allies not have conquered Germany and Japan in WW2, because of the toll on the German civilian population? Yes, war is horrible. Pro Tip: don't start wars.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    Well, in fact it is. First the "official" agencies in charge of most of this aid are practically indistinguishable from Hamas. Second, most if not all the funds get diverted. Third, Hamas appears to enjoy widespread support within the Palestinian population, as shown by the last free elections, which Hamas won handily, as well as opinion polls and public displays. And I am not talking about basic humanitarian aid such as food and medicines. I am talking about the high-level assistance, construction aid. Famously, water pipes paid for by the EU were torn out and used to make rockets and/or rocket launchers.
- disgruntledphd2 1y ago
  This is tricky. Hamas are definitely bad guys, but it's not right to punish the Palestinians for their actions. The EU broke off formal relations with Hamas in 2007, aid is different though.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    1. The Palestinians are not being "punished". That would actually be illegal and is not what Israel is doing. Israel is trying to destroy the party that attacked them, which is a legitimate war aim. 2. Being the civilian population of a dictatorship waging a brutal war of annihilation against its neighbors sucks, but is not the fault of the party being attacked and defending itself from said brutal attack. 3. Particularly if that dictatorship very explicitly uses the civilian population as human shields (an actual war crime) and does everything to maximize civilian casualties. Again, this is horrible, but not on the party that was attacked by said dictatorship, but rather on the dictatorship 4. Unlike, say, Nazi Germany, the last election produced a very solid majority for the party that is now running the dictatorship. And polls as well as public display, as much as those can be trusted, show a significant if not overwhelming majority in support of the war of annihilation waged against Israel.
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      So you're telling me that Israel have not been stopping aid from getting into Gaza for three weeks now? That is definitely a war crime. And basically Hamas are fighting a guerrilla war and engaging in acts of terror similar to what the Zionists engaged in pre 48. If that was ok, then surely what Hamas are doing is fine? I'm really confused about your notion that the Israeli state is being attacked. It's more accurate to say that both sides are being attacked, and only one side is engaging in plans to displace one side. The last election was in 2007, half the Gaza population wasn't even born then. By your logic the carbrt bombing of Dresden and nuking Japan were fine, is that a fair summation of your position?
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        Yeah, it's not a war crime. Israel is not required to supply its enemy. If the enemy takes control of humanitarian aid shipments, which Hamas has done consistently from the start, the requirement to supply aid no longer applies. So Israel has been over-fulfilling its requirements. And when it stops over-fulfilling people start accusing it of war crimes. You know what's a war crime? - Using your own civilian population as human shields - Commandeering humanitarian aid - Unprovoked attacks targeting civilians - Using hospitals and schools to launch attacks (including rocket attacks) Nothing about war is "OK", and neither is your attempt at framing. War is horrible. Pro-Tip: don't start wars. Free bonus pro-tip: don't start wars and then cry victim when you start losing. However, neither Dresden nor the nuclear attacks were "genocide". Look it up. And last I checked, the consensus is that they were not war crimes, although a vocal minority claims otherwise.

hyperman1 1y ago

It's worse. There is no Europe. There is no one who can decide to pay. It's a marriage of convenience between states that know they are ignored if they speak on their own. But each of them sees all others as a way to amplify their own voice but surely not have an independent thought. It's the penultimate example of trying to herd cats. Europe is good at commerce because it has to, the member states want to sell to each other. In the same way, it's bad at politics, military and vision because it still can afford to.

izacus 1y ago
This is a ridiculous falsehood and I'm wondering how you can live in such an obvious delusion. Is this some kind of political bot post?
mjd 1y ago
What do you mean here by "penultimate"?

mpweiher 1y ago

- Europe has spent more on Ukraine than the US. - Europe has, sadly, also been the main sender of aid to, effectively, Hamas. I wish they would stop.

pavlov 1y ago
Is the answer really to stop sending aid to a million children in distress and for Europe to look the other way as Netanyahu and Trump proceed with the full-scale ethnic cleansing they’ve proudly announced with AI-generated videos? I don’t have an answer, but there has to be some other option.
BrawnyBadger53 1y ago
Food and water aid being controversial is a bit ridiculous to me.
- jalapenos 1y ago
  Must be damn good food and water
- carstenhag 1y ago
  AFAIK the usual counter point to this is "Hamas could decide to not buy weapons, instead buy water & food. But they don't". - I don't know what is more truthy, just mentioning it.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
[flagged]
- mpweiher 1y ago
  We're saving ca 10 million people from the actual genocide the Arabs have been trying to perpetrate against Israel since at least 1948. There is no genocide, attempted or not, in the other direction. In fact, the IDF has a non-combatant/combatant casualty ratio of around 1.2 : 1, which is by far the best (lowest) in the world. Typical is around 10:1.

thebruce87m 1y ago

Seems like Europe has provided a bigger chunk than the US for Ukraine, unless you think it should be even more than that? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o.amp

ImJamal 1y ago
From the article > the US has sent more grants, while the EU sent more loans. While more money has come from the EU they are more in the form of loans which isn't really providing aid in the traditional sense.
- thebruce87m 1y ago
  Additional nuance: > EU loans will have been on generous terms - so Ukraine will be repaying less interest than it would normally. In some cases, Ukraine isn't expected to pay anything, with repayments coming from revenues from frozen Russian assets.

constantcrying 1y ago

Europe needs to do exactly one thing. Stop paying for everything.

jalapenos 1y ago
When do I get some of that everything