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It looks like great support (Blackmagicdesign) for building a small broadcast studio from scratch tho. I could see BMD embracing this. There are lots of studi

It looks like great support (Blackmagicdesign) for building a small broadcast studio from scratch tho. I could see BMD embracing this. There are lots of studios that are not commercial broadcast that could really use a system like this. Isn't one of the problems with hardware support is that hardware vendors have agreements with the competitors you listed? Computers are fast enough now that once you can get the signals into a machine, many of the special functions that previously required dedicated hardware can now be run in software? With proper timing signal distribution of course. Seems like 12G SDI to SFP+ would enable server class machines to subsume most of the special function hardware.

randall 1y ago
bmd is in a decent position to help with this. making davinci be the nle that ties into this like avid / airspeed or whatever ppl use now, seems pretty cool.
chriscjcj 1y ago
Disclaimer... I am a director and not an engineer. I can only give you my relatively limited understanding.... > It looks like great support (Blackmagicdesign) for building a small broadcast studio from scratch tho. Agreed! > I could see BMD embracing this. There are lots of studios that are not commercial broadcast that could really use a system like this. Also agreed. Black Magic definitely makes a lot of reasonably-priced and very capable gear. They're not a major player in the TV automation space, but perhaps with the help of Sofie, they could make inroads. > Isn't one of the problems with hardware support is that hardware vendors have agreements with the competitors you listed? That's not a topic I'm knowledgeable about. It is my understanding that most shops who have a particular vendor's automation platform will also have that vendor's hardware running at its core. In all the shops I've seen, the switcher that's controlled by the automation system is made by the same company. Or if its another vendor's product, it's sold and provisioned along with the automation system when its purchased. Other stuff like audio mixers, robo-cam products, clip players, and CG/graphics platforms can be from other vendors. > Computers are fast enough now that once you can get the signals into a machine, many of the special functions that previously required dedicated hardware can now be run in software? With proper timing signal distribution of course. > Seems like 12G SDI to SFP+ would enable server class machines to subsume most of the special function hardware. For audio, I think that would be a relatively easy lift with technologies like Dante. However, in most TV stations, you're going to need to literally plug upwards of 100 HDSDI video cables into a piece of hardware so that those sources can be switched to on TV, mixed and keyed on multiple mixed-effects banks, and viewed on multiviewer screens in the control room. I don't know that a regular-ol' PC has what it takes to take in and simultaneously process that amount of video. But just because don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. ;-) Just haven't seen it yet.
- claudex 1y ago
  >For audio, I think that would be a relatively easy lift with technologies like Dante. However, in most TV stations, you're going to need to literally plug upwards of 100 HDSDI video cables into a piece of hardware I don't know the TV stations requirements, but you can maybe have 10 interconnected servers that manage 10 HDSDI flux each (and can send them on another if required for processing) ?
- chgs 1y ago
  Sofie drives the matrix (black magic videohub for small ones like the 120 squared, but ours are 1000+ which black magic won’t do), the audio mixers, the video mixers, the graphics and by machines (Caspar), etc. your mixers don’t need that many inputs - a typical one might be 24 or 32 inputs with a few ME banks. All these devices use standard protocols, or it’s just a new plugin for sofie ti drive it. Of course increasingly the industry is using 2110 on spine and leaf networks rather than SDI. I don’t know if there any COTS mixers aside from the vmix/obs level, I believe some 2110 controllers will provide video matrix style interfaces. Nmos seems challenged in this area from what I hear.
- jpc0 1y ago
  SMPTE-2110 is a route to look at, but it definitely isn’t cheap…
chgs 1y ago
> Computers are fast enough now that once you can get the signals into a machine, many of the special functions that previously required dedicated hardware can now be run in software? I’m a big fan of the Richard Cartwright view of asynchronous signal processing https://creativecow.net/matrox-video-announces-nab-2023-lineup-signals-disruptive-new-framework-for-live-broadcast-in-the-cloud/ https://creativecow.net/matrox-video-announces-nab-2023-line... But I don’t think it has the traction isn’t deserves. Too many people in the industry are still wedded to ptp timing their packets to arrive in the same 30us windows.
- jpc0 1y ago
  I would love to ask some hard questions of this solution. Lets say I have a very simple workflow. Camera and CG in -> conversion to RGB/YCbCr -> compositing -> pass to broadcast encoder Conversion and compositing can be done at scan line speeds using conventional hardware, so latency is at most a frame. With an asynchronous workflow this is not possible anymore, let’s pretend the network infrastructure isn’t an issue and is operating perfectly with low latency, I don’t need cots hardware on the processor because without some sort of DMI even NIC -> GPU is several frames of latency, the GPU then needs to do the processing, then you again need to GPU-> NIC. I then need to reorder frames at the receiving device, the stream encoder. Because its async, frame 2 might arrive before frame 1. So now I need a buffer there. I do not see how this doesn’t add significant latency to the path even in the most simple setup. Add internet services like AWS and your latency shoots of to tens of frames before you even hit the media encoder.
  - chgs 1y ago
    I’ve seen stuff going to and back from AWS with sub second latency, even with h264 encoding. BT sport have operated remote production channels from AWS for a few years now [0] I’m no fan of cloud, but the latency to a nearby DC isn’t high, and when your feeds are going from the field anyway it doesn’t make much difference. I remember OBS (the Olympics, not the open source software) bemoaning the lack of bandwidth available in cities and them having to build data centres in place like Beijing for temporary events, because there simply isn’t the multi-bit links to AWS etc available. [0] https://www.svgeurope.org/blog/headlines/stratospheric-revolution-bt-sport-reaches-for-cloud-in-the-next-phase-of-its-decentalised-remote-production-evolution/ https://www.svgeurope.org/blog/headlines/stratospheric-revol...

randall 1y ago

bmd is in a decent position to help with this. making davinci be the nle that ties into this like avid / airspeed or whatever ppl use now, seems pretty cool.

chriscjcj 1y ago

Disclaimer... I am a director and not an engineer. I can only give you my relatively limited understanding.... > It looks like great support (Blackmagicdesign) for building a small broadcast studio from scratch tho. Agreed! > I could see BMD embracing this. There are lots of studios that are not commercial broadcast that could really use a system like this. Also agreed. Black Magic definitely makes a lot of reasonably-priced and very capable gear. They're not a major player in the TV automation space, but perhaps with the help of Sofie, they could make inroads. > Isn't one of the problems with hardware support is that hardware vendors have agreements with the competitors you listed? That's not a topic I'm knowledgeable about. It is my understanding that most shops who have a particular vendor's automation platform will also have that vendor's hardware running at its core. In all the shops I've seen, the switcher that's controlled by the automation system is made by the same company. Or if its another vendor's product, it's sold and provisioned along with the automation system when its purchased. Other stuff like audio mixers, robo-cam products, clip players, and CG/graphics platforms can be from other vendors. > Computers are fast enough now that once you can get the signals into a machine, many of the special functions that previously required dedicated hardware can now be run in software? With proper timing signal distribution of course. > Seems like 12G SDI to SFP+ would enable server class machines to subsume most of the special function hardware. For audio, I think that would be a relatively easy lift with technologies like Dante. However, in most TV stations, you're going to need to literally plug upwards of 100 HDSDI video cables into a piece of hardware so that those sources can be switched to on TV, mixed and keyed on multiple mixed-effects banks, and viewed on multiviewer screens in the control room. I don't know that a regular-ol' PC has what it takes to take in and simultaneously process that amount of video. But just because don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. ;-) Just haven't seen it yet.

claudex 1y ago
>For audio, I think that would be a relatively easy lift with technologies like Dante. However, in most TV stations, you're going to need to literally plug upwards of 100 HDSDI video cables into a piece of hardware I don't know the TV stations requirements, but you can maybe have 10 interconnected servers that manage 10 HDSDI flux each (and can send them on another if required for processing) ?
chgs 1y ago
Sofie drives the matrix (black magic videohub for small ones like the 120 squared, but ours are 1000+ which black magic won’t do), the audio mixers, the video mixers, the graphics and by machines (Caspar), etc. your mixers don’t need that many inputs - a typical one might be 24 or 32 inputs with a few ME banks. All these devices use standard protocols, or it’s just a new plugin for sofie ti drive it. Of course increasingly the industry is using 2110 on spine and leaf networks rather than SDI. I don’t know if there any COTS mixers aside from the vmix/obs level, I believe some 2110 controllers will provide video matrix style interfaces. Nmos seems challenged in this area from what I hear.
jpc0 1y ago
SMPTE-2110 is a route to look at, but it definitely isn’t cheap…

chgs 1y ago

> Computers are fast enough now that once you can get the signals into a machine, many of the special functions that previously required dedicated hardware can now be run in software? I’m a big fan of the Richard Cartwright view of asynchronous signal processing https://creativecow.net/matrox-video-announces-nab-2023-lineup-signals-disruptive-new-framework-for-live-broadcast-in-the-cloud/ https://creativecow.net/matrox-video-announces-nab-2023-line... But I don’t think it has the traction isn’t deserves. Too many people in the industry are still wedded to ptp timing their packets to arrive in the same 30us windows.

jpc0 1y ago
I would love to ask some hard questions of this solution. Lets say I have a very simple workflow. Camera and CG in -> conversion to RGB/YCbCr -> compositing -> pass to broadcast encoder Conversion and compositing can be done at scan line speeds using conventional hardware, so latency is at most a frame. With an asynchronous workflow this is not possible anymore, let’s pretend the network infrastructure isn’t an issue and is operating perfectly with low latency, I don’t need cots hardware on the processor because without some sort of DMI even NIC -> GPU is several frames of latency, the GPU then needs to do the processing, then you again need to GPU-> NIC. I then need to reorder frames at the receiving device, the stream encoder. Because its async, frame 2 might arrive before frame 1. So now I need a buffer there. I do not see how this doesn’t add significant latency to the path even in the most simple setup. Add internet services like AWS and your latency shoots of to tens of frames before you even hit the media encoder.
- chgs 1y ago
  I’ve seen stuff going to and back from AWS with sub second latency, even with h264 encoding. BT sport have operated remote production channels from AWS for a few years now [0] I’m no fan of cloud, but the latency to a nearby DC isn’t high, and when your feeds are going from the field anyway it doesn’t make much difference. I remember OBS (the Olympics, not the open source software) bemoaning the lack of bandwidth available in cities and them having to build data centres in place like Beijing for temporary events, because there simply isn’t the multi-bit links to AWS etc available. [0] https://www.svgeurope.org/blog/headlines/stratospheric-revolution-bt-sport-reaches-for-cloud-in-the-next-phase-of-its-decentalised-remote-production-evolution/ https://www.svgeurope.org/blog/headlines/stratospheric-revol...