5 ms·

ever since I paid $8 for jumping in and out of a BART station b/c I meant to go into a Muni station... I lost all respect for them.

xlbuttplug2 1y ago
I too learned that the hard way when dropping a family member off. I naively assumed it wouldn't charge me if I tapped out at the same station 10 minutes later.
- ta1243 1y ago
  London Underground has nice clear policies around this, both about what you'll be charged https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-5 https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets... And about refunds (typically you'd get an automatic refund for a one-off event) https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/touched-in-and-out-at-same-station https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/touched-in... I always have high levels of respect for companies with such clarity
- crote 1y ago
  In The Netherlands you get a full refund if you tap out at the same station within 20 minutes. If you travel with NS (National Railways), you even have 60 minutes to tap out. Having someone pay just to wave off someone is incredibly customer-hostile. Besides, how many people are even committing fraud like that?
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    A parallel comment suggests it might be an “excursion fair.” Although it is not really the intended use of a train, some reasons an individual might ride the train might be sight-seeing, or because they are homeless and want somewhere warm to hang out. In that case, IMO it isn’t really a fraud attempt to get off on the same stop you got in, it is just unexpected use of the system.
Johnny555 1y ago
This is pretty common among transit agencies, I got on the wrong platform in Japan once and couldn't get back out until I talked to a station agent, the fare gate gave an error and wouldn't open the gates. Not sure if that's better or worse behavior than charging a fare. It's called an "excursion fare", which is meant for those that just ride the train without getting off and come back to the same station. You can talk to a BART station agent (assuming you can find one) and they'll let you out, or call customer service and they'll reverse the charge. Modern fare systems should be able to figure out when you've exited right after entering and not charge you. BART is supposed to be adding a 30 minute grace period so if you go in and out of the station within 30 minutes, you won't be charged. https://www.bart.gov/guide/faq#3 https://www.bart.gov/guide/faq#3
- kelnos 1y ago
  Heh, I was in Japan a few weeks ago, and had left my bag in a locker at a station (inside the fare gates). I went back to get it later in the day (when I could check into my hotel), and the station attendant charged me 150 yen just to go in to get it and come right back out! I get that they want to charge people who ride the trains for... fun?... and then get off at the same station, but it felt really silly.
  - Symbiote 1y ago
    If it was good enough in 1980, Japan might computerise it but they won't change it.
  - landedgentry 1y ago
    I think those tickets are for people who train watch on the platform or see off friends/family from the platform.
a_t48 1y ago
You can talk with the clerk to get a refund. But I thought they were doing away with it entirely…
- impute 1y ago
  You can also call them and get it refunded after the fact
CoffeeOnWrite 1y ago
Did they ever fix this as announced in 2022? https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-40-excursion-fee-for-getting-on-and-off-at-the-same-station/ https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-4...
mogdance 1y ago
Oh! I thought they were going to get rid of that fee: https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-40-excursion-fee-for-getting-on-and-off-at-the-same-station/ https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-4...
Lammy 1y ago
Fun fact: the reason it's like that is because both levels were envisioned for BART usage before the Peninsula lines got cut. In the original design both levels would have been the same fare area and you would have been able to walk between them instead of having to take the big escalators down to BART caged off from the Muni level. It's comical to watch one of the Muni trains crawl to one end of the giant platform that was sized for 10-car BART trains.
- kelnos 1y ago
  Ah, I've always wondered why the Muni platforms (especially Powell) are so ridiculously long compared to the Muni trains themselves. Makes so much sense that they were originally designed for BART cars.
  - Lammy 1y ago
    And here's a citation — Engineering Report: Rapid Transit for the San Francisco Bay Area, June, 1961: https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-parsons-engineering-report-to-sf-bart-district%20WSP.pdf#page=37 https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-... “The San Francisco Downtown element of the Bay Area regional rapid transit system consists of a four-track, two-level subway beneath Market Street and a two-track, single-level subway beneath Post Street.” “At Montgomery Street, the Market Street subway joins the San Francisco approach to the Trans-Bay Tube. The subway extends up Market Street to about Van Ness Avenue where it swings lo the south to become the Peninsula Line in Mission Street. The lower level of the subway provides through regional service by joining the Peninsula and the Trans-Bay Lines. The upper level is built to accommodate local rapid transit trains at a future time and will be utilized initially by the streetcars of the San Francisco Municipal Railway.” (emphasis mine) And the flow map of estimated 1975 passenger counts makes it clear why they would want to double up on platform capacity along that stretch: https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-parsons-engineering-report-to-sf-bart-district%20WSP.pdf#page=75 https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-... Imagine if we got this BART: https://i.imgur.com/hon9nEf.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/hon9nEf.jpeg (1956)
13_9_7_7_5_18 1y ago
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xlbuttplug2 1y ago

I too learned that the hard way when dropping a family member off. I naively assumed it wouldn't charge me if I tapped out at the same station 10 minutes later.

ta1243 1y ago
London Underground has nice clear policies around this, both about what you'll be charged https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-5 https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets... And about refunds (typically you'd get an automatic refund for a one-off event) https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/touched-in-and-out-at-same-station https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/refunds-and-replacements/touched-in... I always have high levels of respect for companies with such clarity
crote 1y ago
In The Netherlands you get a full refund if you tap out at the same station within 20 minutes. If you travel with NS (National Railways), you even have 60 minutes to tap out. Having someone pay just to wave off someone is incredibly customer-hostile. Besides, how many people are even committing fraud like that?
- bee_rider 1y ago
  A parallel comment suggests it might be an “excursion fair.” Although it is not really the intended use of a train, some reasons an individual might ride the train might be sight-seeing, or because they are homeless and want somewhere warm to hang out. In that case, IMO it isn’t really a fraud attempt to get off on the same stop you got in, it is just unexpected use of the system.

Johnny555 1y ago

This is pretty common among transit agencies, I got on the wrong platform in Japan once and couldn't get back out until I talked to a station agent, the fare gate gave an error and wouldn't open the gates. Not sure if that's better or worse behavior than charging a fare. It's called an "excursion fare", which is meant for those that just ride the train without getting off and come back to the same station. You can talk to a BART station agent (assuming you can find one) and they'll let you out, or call customer service and they'll reverse the charge. Modern fare systems should be able to figure out when you've exited right after entering and not charge you. BART is supposed to be adding a 30 minute grace period so if you go in and out of the station within 30 minutes, you won't be charged. https://www.bart.gov/guide/faq#3 https://www.bart.gov/guide/faq#3

kelnos 1y ago
Heh, I was in Japan a few weeks ago, and had left my bag in a locker at a station (inside the fare gates). I went back to get it later in the day (when I could check into my hotel), and the station attendant charged me 150 yen just to go in to get it and come right back out! I get that they want to charge people who ride the trains for... fun?... and then get off at the same station, but it felt really silly.
- Symbiote 1y ago
  If it was good enough in 1980, Japan might computerise it but they won't change it.
- landedgentry 1y ago
  I think those tickets are for people who train watch on the platform or see off friends/family from the platform.

a_t48 1y ago

You can talk with the clerk to get a refund. But I thought they were doing away with it entirely…

impute 1y ago
You can also call them and get it refunded after the fact

CoffeeOnWrite 1y ago

Did they ever fix this as announced in 2022? https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-40-excursion-fee-for-getting-on-and-off-at-the-same-station/ https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-4...

mogdance 1y ago

Oh! I thought they were going to get rid of that fee: https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-40-excursion-fee-for-getting-on-and-off-at-the-same-station/ https://sfist.com/2022/12/08/rejoice-bart-is-dumping-the-6-4...

Lammy 1y ago

Fun fact: the reason it's like that is because both levels were envisioned for BART usage before the Peninsula lines got cut. In the original design both levels would have been the same fare area and you would have been able to walk between them instead of having to take the big escalators down to BART caged off from the Muni level. It's comical to watch one of the Muni trains crawl to one end of the giant platform that was sized for 10-car BART trains.

kelnos 1y ago
Ah, I've always wondered why the Muni platforms (especially Powell) are so ridiculously long compared to the Muni trains themselves. Makes so much sense that they were originally designed for BART cars.
- Lammy 1y ago
  And here's a citation — Engineering Report: Rapid Transit for the San Francisco Bay Area, June, 1961: https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-parsons-engineering-report-to-sf-bart-district%20WSP.pdf#page=37 https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-... “The San Francisco Downtown element of the Bay Area regional rapid transit system consists of a four-track, two-level subway beneath Market Street and a two-track, single-level subway beneath Post Street.” “At Montgomery Street, the Market Street subway joins the San Francisco approach to the Trans-Bay Tube. The subway extends up Market Street to about Van Ness Avenue where it swings lo the south to become the Peninsula Line in Mission Street. The lower level of the subway provides through regional service by joining the Peninsula and the Trans-Bay Lines. The upper level is built to accommodate local rapid transit trains at a future time and will be utilized initially by the streetcars of the San Francisco Municipal Railway.” (emphasis mine) And the flow map of estimated 1975 passenger counts makes it clear why they would want to double up on platform capacity along that stretch: https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-parsons-engineering-report-to-sf-bart-district%20WSP.pdf#page=75 https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/docs/50-years/1961-... Imagine if we got this BART: https://i.imgur.com/hon9nEf.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/hon9nEf.jpeg (1956)

13_9_7_7_5_18 1y ago

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