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I don't see anything romantic about this. The mass mobilization of a society so well over 400,000 members of its youngest and brightest can die grotesquely over

I don't see anything romantic about this. The mass mobilization of a society so well over 400,000 members of its youngest and brightest can die grotesquely overseas while industry, society and culture are forcefully synchronized to a single government issued purpose is not usually something to desire. I do understand the needs of that particular war, The Nazis and Imperial Japan were truly invasive evils, big and globally dangerous enough to be worth fighting, even if it meant mass mobilization, but generally, there's no nostalgic beauty to such vast butchery, destruction and creation for the sake of destruction. I prefer finding my own purpose in life, and knowing that my children won't be ripped apart by artillery in some blood-soaked field of mud due to government decree.

stevenwoo 1y ago
Studs Terkel's collection of interviews with various populations of the USA in The Good War is a good antidote to overromanticization of World War 2 conditions.
- southernplaces7 1y ago
  Very much agreed, as are many other narratives, from both soldiers and civilians about the more cynical aspects and hardships of that purpose filled time. The people childishly downvoting my comment expressing a desire to not be forced into a vast government project of destruction and death would do well to read such texts.
  - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
    Your comment is being downvoted not because they disagree with the noble opinion you express, but because you were misreading the comment you replied to, making yours a beautifully-written non-sequitur in context.
- dredmorbius 1y ago
  And if that's not enough for you, there's the Studs Terkel Radio Archive, which is an absolute treasure: <https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/ https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/> (There's a related podcast, though it appears on hiatus: <https://studs.show/ https://studs.show/>).
  - southernplaces7 1y ago
    This is wonderful! Thanks for the link. I appreciate Terkel's work but didn't know about this particular source.
    - dredmorbius 1y ago
      Enjoy! It really is amazing. Studs ran a daily program from the 1950s through at least the 1990s, and possibly into the 2000s. The sampling, depth, and breath is absolutely incredible.
zelphirkalt 1y ago
I think what the GP is relating to is that we could achieve so so sooo much more, if we didn't have all the opportunistic selfish people in our midst, who will go against any worthy goal, if it means they can enrich themselves. It is about the distribution of resources to reach goals. It would be quite easy for example to ensure, that every school meets some standards, enabling children to learn well. But there are always some lobbyists lobbying against it, and some politicians working against it, because there is no short term gain to be had for their business or for themselves. Also an educated population is maybe not what every politician wants in the first place, even though we all know, that raising the general education level would be beneficial in the long run. Or what we could achieve in terms of renewable energy, if we all were behind the goal. There are many examples that benefit society, but anti-social forces and influences are everywhere, delaying, stopping, and sabotaging our future.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  You're strawmanning. >It is about the distribution of resources to reach goals. It would be quite easy for example to ensure, that every school meets some standards, enabling children to learn well. In the US, educational spending went up massively without much improvement in outcomes: https://slatestarcodex.com/blog_images/primary_scost.gif https://slatestarcodex.com/blog_images/primary_scost.gif https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/mar/02/dave-brat/brat-us-school-spending-375-percent-over-30-years-/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/mar/02/dave-brat/... Small-government types like me aren't against good things. We just believe that it takes much more than simply throwing resources at a problem to solve it. In my view, the "you're just against good things" finger-pointing merely gets in the way of a constructive discussion regarding what actually works. Based on what I've read about WW2, the US was able to rapidly mobilize because it had great leadership at the time. We're not able to mobilize in the same way nowadays because our government leadership sucks. The civic culture is weaker (in part due to political polarization, and also demoralization due to our failures in Vietnam, Iraq, etc.). There's lots of anti-Americanism in America nowadays. Even the right has become anti-American. (Arguably, that's a good thing if it gets us in fewer wars!) And politicians seem to care more about signalling to their constituents that "something is being done" rather than actually succeeding at the thing. Salaries are higher and projects are more exciting in the private sector. US multinationals are growing fast, and starving the US government of the brilliant, hardworking individuals that would be needed for the government to do awesome stuff. The government turns those people off due to red tape, lower salaries, and a generally bad working environment. I graduated from one of the top universities in the US, and I don't remember talking to any student who even considered working for the government.

stevenwoo 1y ago

Studs Terkel's collection of interviews with various populations of the USA in The Good War is a good antidote to overromanticization of World War 2 conditions.

southernplaces7 1y ago
Very much agreed, as are many other narratives, from both soldiers and civilians about the more cynical aspects and hardships of that purpose filled time. The people childishly downvoting my comment expressing a desire to not be forced into a vast government project of destruction and death would do well to read such texts.
- mitthrowaway2 1y ago
  Your comment is being downvoted not because they disagree with the noble opinion you express, but because you were misreading the comment you replied to, making yours a beautifully-written non-sequitur in context.
dredmorbius 1y ago
And if that's not enough for you, there's the Studs Terkel Radio Archive, which is an absolute treasure: <https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/ https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/> (There's a related podcast, though it appears on hiatus: <https://studs.show/ https://studs.show/>).
- southernplaces7 1y ago
  This is wonderful! Thanks for the link. I appreciate Terkel's work but didn't know about this particular source.
  - dredmorbius 1y ago
    Enjoy! It really is amazing. Studs ran a daily program from the 1950s through at least the 1990s, and possibly into the 2000s. The sampling, depth, and breath is absolutely incredible.

zelphirkalt 1y ago

I think what the GP is relating to is that we could achieve so so sooo much more, if we didn't have all the opportunistic selfish people in our midst, who will go against any worthy goal, if it means they can enrich themselves. It is about the distribution of resources to reach goals. It would be quite easy for example to ensure, that every school meets some standards, enabling children to learn well. But there are always some lobbyists lobbying against it, and some politicians working against it, because there is no short term gain to be had for their business or for themselves. Also an educated population is maybe not what every politician wants in the first place, even though we all know, that raising the general education level would be beneficial in the long run. Or what we could achieve in terms of renewable energy, if we all were behind the goal. There are many examples that benefit society, but anti-social forces and influences are everywhere, delaying, stopping, and sabotaging our future.

0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
You're strawmanning. >It is about the distribution of resources to reach goals. It would be quite easy for example to ensure, that every school meets some standards, enabling children to learn well. In the US, educational spending went up massively without much improvement in outcomes: https://slatestarcodex.com/blog_images/primary_scost.gif https://slatestarcodex.com/blog_images/primary_scost.gif https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/mar/02/dave-brat/brat-us-school-spending-375-percent-over-30-years-/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/mar/02/dave-brat/... Small-government types like me aren't against good things. We just believe that it takes much more than simply throwing resources at a problem to solve it. In my view, the "you're just against good things" finger-pointing merely gets in the way of a constructive discussion regarding what actually works. Based on what I've read about WW2, the US was able to rapidly mobilize because it had great leadership at the time. We're not able to mobilize in the same way nowadays because our government leadership sucks. The civic culture is weaker (in part due to political polarization, and also demoralization due to our failures in Vietnam, Iraq, etc.). There's lots of anti-Americanism in America nowadays. Even the right has become anti-American. (Arguably, that's a good thing if it gets us in fewer wars!) And politicians seem to care more about signalling to their constituents that "something is being done" rather than actually succeeding at the thing. Salaries are higher and projects are more exciting in the private sector. US multinationals are growing fast, and starving the US government of the brilliant, hardworking individuals that would be needed for the government to do awesome stuff. The government turns those people off due to red tape, lower salaries, and a generally bad working environment. I graduated from one of the top universities in the US, and I don't remember talking to any student who even considered working for the government.