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It never ceases to amaze me how poorly catechized the majority of cradle Catholics are. I don't intend this to be directed at you, but it's a standing joke amon

It never ceases to amaze me how poorly catechized the majority of cradle Catholics are. I don't intend this to be directed at you, but it's a standing joke among traditionalist Catholics that "I was raised Catholic" is the preamble to a statement of either ignorance or heresy.

thrwww 1y ago
[flagged]
ben_w 1y ago
> I don't intend this to be directed at you, but it's a standing joke among traditionalist Catholics that "I was raised Catholic" is the preamble to a statement of either ignorance or heresy. It's cool, no offence taken. My mother took it all very seriously, but she was also syncretic New Age/Hindu/Catholic; she got me baptised at birth and took the lead with Sunday school and going to Church etc, my dad was mainly interested in getting me into a good school that was Catholic but himself was atheist. I actually read the entire New Testament while at school, took it at face value, thought "this doesn't work, does it?" and went to Wicca for a bit before deciding that wasn't for me either. I think at no point did anyone bother to explain the structure of the Catholic church, they just kinda assumed we all knew it, when what we knew was from pop culture. I think your local priest was unavoidable knowledge, but pop culture gave me bishops, the Pope (but not the fact that his official title isn't that until it came up on the quiz show QI), and the obvious joke about Cardinal Jaime Sin. The actual education gave me no sense of ranks or the organisation or how nuns and monks fit in — just the same five bible tales (birth, walking on water, feeding of 5000, eye of the needle, death and resurrection) over and over again. With singing. The pattern you've noticed, I think also applies to the UK citizenship test: there's a general sense that most people born with UK nationality wouldn't be able to pass the test to become a citizen as an adult.
- brianwawok 1y ago
  Growing up Catholic we learned all that stuff at CCD which was a Wednesday night “Sunday school”. Otherwise no idea how you would pick it up without google.
  - pbh101 1y ago
    Or Catholic primary/secondary education. But still, both are highly variable in quality/coverage and likely much less consistent than you might assume if unfamiliar with the space.
CGMthrowaway 1y ago
For most of history 99% of Catholics could not read, much less own a Bible. The fetishization of theology is not necessary to be a good Catholic
- TheFreim 1y ago
  Literacy is a great gift which shouldn't be squandered: much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. To try to make knowledge of ones spiritual heritage out to be "fetishization" is inappropriate in my estimation. This reminds me of a story told by Dr. Scott Hahn, a Catholic biblical scholar, about an experience he once had (closely paraphrased): Questioner: "Why do we need to know all of this [bible study, theology, etc]? I can just think of the medieval peasant who is illiterate and thus disqualified from any and everything that you're talking about." Dr. Hahn: "I think the best response to your question would actually come from the medieval peasant himself, because if you could imagine him standing here next to me he would look at you and say, 'You're using me as an excuse? You have books, you have literacy, you have access to these resources, and you're using me as an excuse to not take advantage of them?'"
- User23 1y ago
  For most of history even a single book of the Bible would cost a princely sum. Even today a single manuscript vellum scroll is a significant expense.
- graemep 1y ago
  Bibles were the first book to sell in large numbers when the printing press was invented. Before that the church did expect at least priests and monks and nuns to be able to read the Bible, and there were a lot of them. Most is strictly true, but you are talking about a millennium between the clear primacy of Rome and the invention of the printing press, and half a millennium since so its not hugely more. Finally, historically most people could not own books and had no to limited literacy. Literacy is not necessary to be a good anything, but its definitely better to be literate and have access to things to read.
  - 1y ago
jwmcq 1y ago
Growing up to Scottish and Irish Catholics in England, I remember talking to a bunch of Ulster protestants as a teenager when the topic turned to religion - I said "Well, I was raised Catholic but I'm not really a believer of any kind" and the response was "Ah, so you're one of THOSE Catholics!". Turns out there are a lot of 'those' Catholics.
- B1FF_PSUVM 1y ago
  Don't go to church, but know which church they are not going to.
im3w1l 1y ago
I was raised atheist and the education I received on religion was also firmly from an atheist (I guess anthropological?) viewpoint. What we were taught was that religion in theory (e.g. what is written in the holy books) and religion as it's actually practiced can often be quite different and none of them is realer than the other. Or something like that, it was a while ago.
cperciva 1y ago
Isn't that the point though? To provide a disjunction? "I was raised Catholic" is like "I'm not racist but".
TMWNN 1y ago
>It never ceases to amaze me how poorly catechized the majority of cradle Catholics are. The classic example being asking one "What is the immaculate conception?" That said, I have no reason to think that the average Catholic is more or less knowledgeable about his religion than any other Christian.
- kens 1y ago
  What most people get wrong is that the immaculate conception is the conception of Mary, not Jesus, and is completely different from virgin birth.
ekianjo 1y ago
Who the pope is, is not really relevant. It's not like the pope will suddenly go against the key scriptures or something. Also, most Catholics are born in catholic families so it's not like they chose catholicism over something else.
- graemep 1y ago
  > Also, most Catholics are born in catholic families so it's not like they chose catholicism over something else. I do not know whether that is true any more, at least in all countries. At one Catholic parish I knew in Britain about half the congregation were adult converts. Then there are a lot of people who leave and return. I might count as that - Catholic family, was agnostic (and married in registry office, which turned out to be useful), and now am definitely a Christian but feel denomination does not matter and do not really accept much of the Catholic theology (and some of its practical consequences, such as no women priests really bother me). OTOH I have not, and would not, formally leave the church either.
- ZoomZoomZoom 1y ago
  Who the president is, is not really relevant. It's not like the president will suddenly go against the constitution or something. Bring serious, it's kind of important due to the Pope's infallibility.
  - ekianjo 1y ago
    Irrelevant analogy. You can't change country super easily but you can stop being a Catholic in 5 seconds if you decide it.
    - bevesce- 1y ago
      Apostasy is not that quick or easy. Depending on a country the church can fight you on that.
      - ekianjo 1y ago
        Any example?
remarkEon 1y ago
No idea how old OP is, but I think there's a pattern amongst Millennial cradle Catholics in particular. You grow up with it, maybe you went to Catholic grade school and high school, perhaps even a Catholic college (Notre Dame if you're lucky, Creighton or Marquette if you didn't get that 1500 on the SAT or a 34 on the ACT that you wanted). And then there's sort of a fork when you hit adulthood. You either drop it and never come back, or you passively drift away and then one day you get married and have kids and start taking it seriously again. I knew the reference because of the latter. I suspect there's a lot of Millennial Catholics who are like that. This is to say, or rather explain, that I respect those who convert and have a predilection to Traditionalism. Part of the reason cradle Catholics drifted away is that the boomer generation basically ruined the mystique and the tradition, so when you're a kid it just felt like another chore.
- User23 1y ago
  The OP AKA Dominicans date back to 1216. Haha obviously I’m kidding you but that’s truly tangentially relevant
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

thrwww 1y ago

[flagged]

ben_w 1y ago

> I don't intend this to be directed at you, but it's a standing joke among traditionalist Catholics that "I was raised Catholic" is the preamble to a statement of either ignorance or heresy. It's cool, no offence taken. My mother took it all very seriously, but she was also syncretic New Age/Hindu/Catholic; she got me baptised at birth and took the lead with Sunday school and going to Church etc, my dad was mainly interested in getting me into a good school that was Catholic but himself was atheist. I actually read the entire New Testament while at school, took it at face value, thought "this doesn't work, does it?" and went to Wicca for a bit before deciding that wasn't for me either. I think at no point did anyone bother to explain the structure of the Catholic church, they just kinda assumed we all knew it, when what we knew was from pop culture. I think your local priest was unavoidable knowledge, but pop culture gave me bishops, the Pope (but not the fact that his official title isn't that until it came up on the quiz show QI), and the obvious joke about Cardinal Jaime Sin. The actual education gave me no sense of ranks or the organisation or how nuns and monks fit in — just the same five bible tales (birth, walking on water, feeding of 5000, eye of the needle, death and resurrection) over and over again. With singing. The pattern you've noticed, I think also applies to the UK citizenship test: there's a general sense that most people born with UK nationality wouldn't be able to pass the test to become a citizen as an adult.

brianwawok 1y ago
Growing up Catholic we learned all that stuff at CCD which was a Wednesday night “Sunday school”. Otherwise no idea how you would pick it up without google.
- pbh101 1y ago
  Or Catholic primary/secondary education. But still, both are highly variable in quality/coverage and likely much less consistent than you might assume if unfamiliar with the space.

CGMthrowaway 1y ago

For most of history 99% of Catholics could not read, much less own a Bible. The fetishization of theology is not necessary to be a good Catholic

TheFreim 1y ago
Literacy is a great gift which shouldn't be squandered: much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. To try to make knowledge of ones spiritual heritage out to be "fetishization" is inappropriate in my estimation. This reminds me of a story told by Dr. Scott Hahn, a Catholic biblical scholar, about an experience he once had (closely paraphrased): Questioner: "Why do we need to know all of this [bible study, theology, etc]? I can just think of the medieval peasant who is illiterate and thus disqualified from any and everything that you're talking about." Dr. Hahn: "I think the best response to your question would actually come from the medieval peasant himself, because if you could imagine him standing here next to me he would look at you and say, 'You're using me as an excuse? You have books, you have literacy, you have access to these resources, and you're using me as an excuse to not take advantage of them?'"
User23 1y ago
For most of history even a single book of the Bible would cost a princely sum. Even today a single manuscript vellum scroll is a significant expense.
graemep 1y ago
Bibles were the first book to sell in large numbers when the printing press was invented. Before that the church did expect at least priests and monks and nuns to be able to read the Bible, and there were a lot of them. Most is strictly true, but you are talking about a millennium between the clear primacy of Rome and the invention of the printing press, and half a millennium since so its not hugely more. Finally, historically most people could not own books and had no to limited literacy. Literacy is not necessary to be a good anything, but its definitely better to be literate and have access to things to read.
- 1y ago

jwmcq 1y ago

Growing up to Scottish and Irish Catholics in England, I remember talking to a bunch of Ulster protestants as a teenager when the topic turned to religion - I said "Well, I was raised Catholic but I'm not really a believer of any kind" and the response was "Ah, so you're one of THOSE Catholics!". Turns out there are a lot of 'those' Catholics.

B1FF_PSUVM 1y ago
Don't go to church, but know which church they are not going to.

im3w1l 1y ago

I was raised atheist and the education I received on religion was also firmly from an atheist (I guess anthropological?) viewpoint. What we were taught was that religion in theory (e.g. what is written in the holy books) and religion as it's actually practiced can often be quite different and none of them is realer than the other. Or something like that, it was a while ago.

cperciva 1y ago

Isn't that the point though? To provide a disjunction? "I was raised Catholic" is like "I'm not racist but".

TMWNN 1y ago

>It never ceases to amaze me how poorly catechized the majority of cradle Catholics are. The classic example being asking one "What is the immaculate conception?" That said, I have no reason to think that the average Catholic is more or less knowledgeable about his religion than any other Christian.

kens 1y ago
What most people get wrong is that the immaculate conception is the conception of Mary, not Jesus, and is completely different from virgin birth.

ekianjo 1y ago

Who the pope is, is not really relevant. It's not like the pope will suddenly go against the key scriptures or something. Also, most Catholics are born in catholic families so it's not like they chose catholicism over something else.

graemep 1y ago
> Also, most Catholics are born in catholic families so it's not like they chose catholicism over something else. I do not know whether that is true any more, at least in all countries. At one Catholic parish I knew in Britain about half the congregation were adult converts. Then there are a lot of people who leave and return. I might count as that - Catholic family, was agnostic (and married in registry office, which turned out to be useful), and now am definitely a Christian but feel denomination does not matter and do not really accept much of the Catholic theology (and some of its practical consequences, such as no women priests really bother me). OTOH I have not, and would not, formally leave the church either.
ZoomZoomZoom 1y ago
Who the president is, is not really relevant. It's not like the president will suddenly go against the constitution or something. Bring serious, it's kind of important due to the Pope's infallibility.
- ekianjo 1y ago
  Irrelevant analogy. You can't change country super easily but you can stop being a Catholic in 5 seconds if you decide it.
  - bevesce- 1y ago
    Apostasy is not that quick or easy. Depending on a country the church can fight you on that.
    - ekianjo 1y ago
      Any example?

remarkEon 1y ago

No idea how old OP is, but I think there's a pattern amongst Millennial cradle Catholics in particular. You grow up with it, maybe you went to Catholic grade school and high school, perhaps even a Catholic college (Notre Dame if you're lucky, Creighton or Marquette if you didn't get that 1500 on the SAT or a 34 on the ACT that you wanted). And then there's sort of a fork when you hit adulthood. You either drop it and never come back, or you passively drift away and then one day you get married and have kids and start taking it seriously again. I knew the reference because of the latter. I suspect there's a lot of Millennial Catholics who are like that. This is to say, or rather explain, that I respect those who convert and have a predilection to Traditionalism. Part of the reason cradle Catholics drifted away is that the boomer generation basically ruined the mystique and the tradition, so when you're a kid it just felt like another chore.

User23 1y ago
The OP AKA Dominicans date back to 1216. Haha obviously I’m kidding you but that’s truly tangentially relevant

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]