4 ms·

I’ll explain it clearly: it is impossible to accommodate someone who wants you dead.

api 1y ago
It doesn't seem to stop people from having sympathy for the victims of collective punishment, like Palestinian Muslims whose social views tend toward the extreme right, in other countries. It's hard, I agree. When someone hates you it's by far the easiest path to hate them back. But that's not going to change anyone's mind. It will make them double down. Edit: I'm not bashing Queers for Palestine. It's brilliant. It's probably changed some peoples' minds in that region of the world. You don't hear about it, of course, because when people reconsider long-held and culturally dominant beliefs they often don't say anything about it for a long time. They reconsider quietly. Bigots and hate-mongers and war-mongers are loud. One big rule for interpreting culture is: the craziest, meanest, most bigoted people are almost always the loudest. The wise whisper and the idiot yells.
- AlotOfReading 1y ago
  I'm trying and failing to square the idea that liberals just need to "appeal to the rural lower class" with the idea that failing to do so is why Clinton lost. The Clintons come from Arkansas. Advocating for the rural/conservative lower class has been their M.O. since the 70s. It was a cornerstone of Hillary's campaigns, and a major focus of where she spent time campaigning. If you don't know that about Clinton's strategy, are you really the right person to be commentating on how she should have built her campaign instead?
voxic11 1y ago
Yet they are able to support Hamas and other similar groups so I don't think this really explains it fully.
- jasonlotito 1y ago
  I do not know of any leader on the left that supports Hamas. Please share. Note, Palestinian people are not Hamas.
armchairhacker 1y ago
But it's unfair to believe someone wants you dead just because of their origin. There are millions (probably tens of millions) of rural Southerners. Many don't want you dead, but vote red because they don't feel accommodated. Many vote blue. Moreover, when somebody grows up around people who hate a certain group, it's human nature that they'll also develop hatred. What do you do with those people? I believe the best you can do if pacify them, and convert those whose hatred isn't ingrained. Acknowledging people and accepting the non-hatred parts of their culture is an easy way to reduce the motivation to kill you, and convert those on the fence, without giving leverage. Funding is another way, and while it can give leverage (because adversarial groups shift their own funding towards aggression), I believe if done carefully, the decrease in hatred will outweigh the increase in power, making aggressive efforts overall less effective.
- hooverd 1y ago
  Ok, what parts of rural Southern culture aren't being accommodated? The rural way of life is already insanely subsidized.
  - armchairhacker 1y ago
    I'll agree that most "neoliberals" already at least pretend to be accommodating to rural Southerners. The problem is there are too many people who are way too general in their criticism and mocking towards them, and the popular Democrats don't publicly call this out (another problem is that neoliberals are inauthentic, but that's a general problem I think for a more general discussion). There are many examples of rural white discrimination, e.g. the FAA "personality tests" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43882962#43883255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43882962#43883255) and affirmative action (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520658; it benefit blacks, but didn't benefit rural Southerners despite them being underrepresented in college). More generally, there's an issue when you point these out someone will reply saying "but also...". I understand blacks and foreigners are also discriminated against and deserve to be accommodated. You shouldn't need to argue that whites aren't being discriminated against and are very accommodated, because there will always be some cases where it's untrue, and it doesn't really hurt black anti-discrimination efforts regardless. I'd argue that constant downplaying of white discrimination hurts black anti-discrimination efforts more, because it drives undecided people who've seen it firsthand towards those who acknowledge it, who as of today tend to be bigoted themselves. That's why I feel the need to say something about it.
ryeats 1y ago
[flagged]

api 1y ago

It doesn't seem to stop people from having sympathy for the victims of collective punishment, like Palestinian Muslims whose social views tend toward the extreme right, in other countries. It's hard, I agree. When someone hates you it's by far the easiest path to hate them back. But that's not going to change anyone's mind. It will make them double down. Edit: I'm not bashing Queers for Palestine. It's brilliant. It's probably changed some peoples' minds in that region of the world. You don't hear about it, of course, because when people reconsider long-held and culturally dominant beliefs they often don't say anything about it for a long time. They reconsider quietly. Bigots and hate-mongers and war-mongers are loud. One big rule for interpreting culture is: the craziest, meanest, most bigoted people are almost always the loudest. The wise whisper and the idiot yells.

AlotOfReading 1y ago
I'm trying and failing to square the idea that liberals just need to "appeal to the rural lower class" with the idea that failing to do so is why Clinton lost. The Clintons come from Arkansas. Advocating for the rural/conservative lower class has been their M.O. since the 70s. It was a cornerstone of Hillary's campaigns, and a major focus of where she spent time campaigning. If you don't know that about Clinton's strategy, are you really the right person to be commentating on how she should have built her campaign instead?

voxic11 1y ago

Yet they are able to support Hamas and other similar groups so I don't think this really explains it fully.

jasonlotito 1y ago
I do not know of any leader on the left that supports Hamas. Please share. Note, Palestinian people are not Hamas.

armchairhacker 1y ago

But it's unfair to believe someone wants you dead just because of their origin. There are millions (probably tens of millions) of rural Southerners. Many don't want you dead, but vote red because they don't feel accommodated. Many vote blue. Moreover, when somebody grows up around people who hate a certain group, it's human nature that they'll also develop hatred. What do you do with those people? I believe the best you can do if pacify them, and convert those whose hatred isn't ingrained. Acknowledging people and accepting the non-hatred parts of their culture is an easy way to reduce the motivation to kill you, and convert those on the fence, without giving leverage. Funding is another way, and while it can give leverage (because adversarial groups shift their own funding towards aggression), I believe if done carefully, the decrease in hatred will outweigh the increase in power, making aggressive efforts overall less effective.

hooverd 1y ago
Ok, what parts of rural Southern culture aren't being accommodated? The rural way of life is already insanely subsidized.
- armchairhacker 1y ago
  I'll agree that most "neoliberals" already at least pretend to be accommodating to rural Southerners. The problem is there are too many people who are way too general in their criticism and mocking towards them, and the popular Democrats don't publicly call this out (another problem is that neoliberals are inauthentic, but that's a general problem I think for a more general discussion). There are many examples of rural white discrimination, e.g. the FAA "personality tests" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43882962#43883255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43882962#43883255) and affirmative action (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36520658; it benefit blacks, but didn't benefit rural Southerners despite them being underrepresented in college). More generally, there's an issue when you point these out someone will reply saying "but also...". I understand blacks and foreigners are also discriminated against and deserve to be accommodated. You shouldn't need to argue that whites aren't being discriminated against and are very accommodated, because there will always be some cases where it's untrue, and it doesn't really hurt black anti-discrimination efforts regardless. I'd argue that constant downplaying of white discrimination hurts black anti-discrimination efforts more, because it drives undecided people who've seen it firsthand towards those who acknowledge it, who as of today tend to be bigoted themselves. That's why I feel the need to say something about it.

ryeats 1y ago

[flagged]