4 ms·

> 1. Most people get a degree to pass degree checks in jobs. How many top physicists didn't go to university? How many Nobel Prize winners (aside from Peace or

by arp242 1y ago

> 1. Most people get a degree to pass degree checks in jobs. How many top physicists didn't go to university? How many Nobel Prize winners (aside from Peace or Literature)? How many degree-less engineers do you want to be building your bridges? Or surgeons operating on you? This is such a software dev centric view. In software it kind of works because you can learn and "practice" with just a computer. This is also why there's a fair amount of car mechanics without degrees. But it's much harder to "practice" many other things. As a software dev who never went to university, I also readily admit that I never did some of the more theoretical foundational stuff. Is that relevant in my day-to-day work? Mostly not. Until it is.

ponector 1y ago
Also you don't need a student loan or huge amount of money to get a degree. There are plenty of places where you can get bachelor/master degree for small tuition fee.
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  > plenty of places where you can get bachelor/master degree for small tuition fee not in America, not anymore
  - ponector 1y ago
    How about South America? That one in the south hemisphere.
nappsec 1y ago
You're talking about rigorous fields where practitioners need a solid technical base. There are lots of white-collar jobs that really don't require a college education but employers will filter out applicants with degrees.
- mystraline 1y ago
  And if you're aware of history, it was this case that moved companies to use degrees. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/401/424/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/401/424/ Previously, tests could be administered to determine aptitude, but was found illegal form of discrimination. However, academic degrees somehow werent that. This Forbes article goes I to it much better than I. https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/11/06/thank-or-blame-the-supreme-court-for-credential-inflation/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/11/06/thank-or-... As for other comments, I find it telling that professions like Medical Doctor, professional engineer, and the like have an apprenticeship built in, but somehow that invalidated my comments? (Hint: it doesn't)
  - Hizonner 1y ago
    > Previously, tests could be administered to determine aptitude, but was found illegal form of discrimination. Not strictly true. But you have to be able to show that your test actually measures something important to the task, without at the same time being biased by unrelated issues. Which is hard, and requires domain knowledge, and might mean that some tests couldn't't be written tests, so it scared off the HR types. And, yeah, of course you're right that those same unrelated issues keep people from getting degrees. But everybody gets to ignore that somehow. Perhaps the right approach to the "degree" thing would be more regulation, in the form of a requirement that you show that the actual subject matter of the specific degrees you were requiring or advantaging was relevant to job performance. No more "any college degree" BS.
    - ndriscoll 1y ago
      The point of trying to determine aptitude is exactly that it does not measure current ability to perform specific tasks or possession of specific domain knowledge, but rather general ability to learn/flexibility to be given new tasks. One of the places where software has succeeded is that the industry gets away with quietly trying to test for intelligence while ostensibly making it look work related (algorithm puzzles, "wanting to hear how candidates think"). IBM straight up gave me math problems (like solving systems of equations under time pressure) when applying to my first programming job in addition to some basic whiteboard coding. This is part of why it's possible for smart people without CS degrees to break into the field. Basically any job where you're not acting as a human automaton benefits from general learning ability, so if degrees stop working or stop being allowed, people will no doubt look for another proxy.
km144 1y ago
Degrees are a filtering mechanism. In almost all fields/positions they are a weak signal of aptitude, not a strong one. But there are no strong signals of aptitude before the interviewing process at the very least, and most of the time there is no strong signal until the candidate is actually employed and working. So I don't disagree with you, but the person you're replying to is just stating a reality of the job market and the reason people are going to college.

by arp242 1y ago

ponector 1y ago

Also you don't need a student loan or huge amount of money to get a degree. There are plenty of places where you can get bachelor/master degree for small tuition fee.

insane_dreamer 1y ago
> plenty of places where you can get bachelor/master degree for small tuition fee not in America, not anymore
- ponector 1y ago
  How about South America? That one in the south hemisphere.

nappsec 1y ago

You're talking about rigorous fields where practitioners need a solid technical base. There are lots of white-collar jobs that really don't require a college education but employers will filter out applicants with degrees.

mystraline 1y ago
And if you're aware of history, it was this case that moved companies to use degrees. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/401/424/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/401/424/ Previously, tests could be administered to determine aptitude, but was found illegal form of discrimination. However, academic degrees somehow werent that. This Forbes article goes I to it much better than I. https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/11/06/thank-or-blame-the-supreme-court-for-credential-inflation/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2014/11/06/thank-or-... As for other comments, I find it telling that professions like Medical Doctor, professional engineer, and the like have an apprenticeship built in, but somehow that invalidated my comments? (Hint: it doesn't)
- Hizonner 1y ago
  > Previously, tests could be administered to determine aptitude, but was found illegal form of discrimination. Not strictly true. But you have to be able to show that your test actually measures something important to the task, without at the same time being biased by unrelated issues. Which is hard, and requires domain knowledge, and might mean that some tests couldn't't be written tests, so it scared off the HR types. And, yeah, of course you're right that those same unrelated issues keep people from getting degrees. But everybody gets to ignore that somehow. Perhaps the right approach to the "degree" thing would be more regulation, in the form of a requirement that you show that the actual subject matter of the specific degrees you were requiring or advantaging was relevant to job performance. No more "any college degree" BS.
  - ndriscoll 1y ago
    The point of trying to determine aptitude is exactly that it does not measure current ability to perform specific tasks or possession of specific domain knowledge, but rather general ability to learn/flexibility to be given new tasks. One of the places where software has succeeded is that the industry gets away with quietly trying to test for intelligence while ostensibly making it look work related (algorithm puzzles, "wanting to hear how candidates think"). IBM straight up gave me math problems (like solving systems of equations under time pressure) when applying to my first programming job in addition to some basic whiteboard coding. This is part of why it's possible for smart people without CS degrees to break into the field. Basically any job where you're not acting as a human automaton benefits from general learning ability, so if degrees stop working or stop being allowed, people will no doubt look for another proxy.

km144 1y ago

Degrees are a filtering mechanism. In almost all fields/positions they are a weak signal of aptitude, not a strong one. But there are no strong signals of aptitude before the interviewing process at the very least, and most of the time there is no strong signal until the candidate is actually employed and working. So I don't disagree with you, but the person you're replying to is just stating a reality of the job market and the reason people are going to college.