5 ms·

> Take the argument to the point of absurdity: should we have an EnergyStar rule on doorbell efficiency? The same line of reasoning applies Except it doesn't r

> Take the argument to the point of absurdity: should we have an EnergyStar rule on doorbell efficiency? The same line of reasoning applies Except it doesn't really, because doorbells use very little current in pretty much any configuration. Appliances use a lot of current in most configurations, hence why many of them require a 240V/20A circuit versus the standard US 120V/15A circuit. Hence why the Energy Star program focuses on appliances. This is a real stretch as slippery slope arguments go. Pick something better.

timr 1y ago
The point of the doorbell metaphor was to illustrate that we're (over-)regulating a tiny sliver of the problem, and ignoring the big issues. To this point, you're making a big leap, going from "current consumption while running", to "overall energy usage". How many times a day are you running your dishwasher? I guarantee mine isn't in the top items in my life that consume electricity, in aggregate. While EnergyStar may have been a good idea when it was created (when energy prices were lower), it's no longer necessary in a world where cost of use significantly exceeds the cost of the appliance itself during its own lifetime. And if that isn't true, then you really have to ask what you're doing in the first place, regulating the energy use of an appliance that doesn't use much energy? I think there are certain aspects of EnergyStar that make sense -- the little label that tells me how many watt-hours an AC uses helps me compare products, so fine. Keep the little sticker. But it doesn't require an agency making silly rules about how much energy any dishwasher, doorbell or dongle can use. Let the market decide.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
  > How many times a day are you running your dishwasher? At least once, sometimes twice, very rarely 3 times when my wife is doing a lot of baking or making candy. Google says dishwashers can draw between 1200W and 2400W. Asking the same source puts a doorbell at 10W to 40W. 2 orders of magnitude less. The dishwasher consumes massively more power than a doorbell. How many times a day is your doorbell ringing? Does your doorbell ring for a couple hours on each press, like the length of a dishwasher cycle?
  - timr 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
      You think improving efficiency of a 1000W+ appliance that runs for 2hrs at a time is not making much difference? Don't know what to tell you on that...
    - justinrubek 1y ago
      I don't think the examples you are giving are taking your argument where you want it to be. Nobody has replaced a microwave with an easy bake oven. They aren't the same thing at all, and nobody is proposing such a thing nor the equivalent anywhere else.
      - timr 1y ago
        Maybe not, but they replaced dishwashers that used to take 1 hour to clean a load with ones that take 4+ hours.
        milkshakes 1y ago
        except, by your own admission, nothing has been replaced? you can still push the quick wash button. the only difference, is that the default choice trades off cleaning time for energy savings. what is your argument against consumers having a choice?
  - Marsymars 1y ago
    Doorbells should actually provide power draw figures. I had to upgrade my doorbell transformer to support two Nest video doorbells, and they run 24/7, so I’d guess that they actually take more aggregate power than the dishwasher that I run once every couple days. Doorbells are an extra pain for consumers to measure power draw for - you can’t easily use a kill-a-watt metre as you have to hardwire them to a low-voltage power source. I don’t want my video resolution capped for energy-draw reasons, but I’d absolutely like to have some specs on typical power draw so that I can adequately compare doorbells.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

timr 1y ago

The point of the doorbell metaphor was to illustrate that we're (over-)regulating a tiny sliver of the problem, and ignoring the big issues. To this point, you're making a big leap, going from "current consumption while running", to "overall energy usage". How many times a day are you running your dishwasher? I guarantee mine isn't in the top items in my life that consume electricity, in aggregate. While EnergyStar may have been a good idea when it was created (when energy prices were lower), it's no longer necessary in a world where cost of use significantly exceeds the cost of the appliance itself during its own lifetime. And if that isn't true, then you really have to ask what you're doing in the first place, regulating the energy use of an appliance that doesn't use much energy? I think there are certain aspects of EnergyStar that make sense -- the little label that tells me how many watt-hours an AC uses helps me compare products, so fine. Keep the little sticker. But it doesn't require an agency making silly rules about how much energy any dishwasher, doorbell or dongle can use. Let the market decide.

sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
> How many times a day are you running your dishwasher? At least once, sometimes twice, very rarely 3 times when my wife is doing a lot of baking or making candy. Google says dishwashers can draw between 1200W and 2400W. Asking the same source puts a doorbell at 10W to 40W. 2 orders of magnitude less. The dishwasher consumes massively more power than a doorbell. How many times a day is your doorbell ringing? Does your doorbell ring for a couple hours on each press, like the length of a dishwasher cycle?
- timr 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
    You think improving efficiency of a 1000W+ appliance that runs for 2hrs at a time is not making much difference? Don't know what to tell you on that...
  - justinrubek 1y ago
    I don't think the examples you are giving are taking your argument where you want it to be. Nobody has replaced a microwave with an easy bake oven. They aren't the same thing at all, and nobody is proposing such a thing nor the equivalent anywhere else.
    - timr 1y ago
      Maybe not, but they replaced dishwashers that used to take 1 hour to clean a load with ones that take 4+ hours.
      - milkshakes 1y ago
        except, by your own admission, nothing has been replaced? you can still push the quick wash button. the only difference, is that the default choice trades off cleaning time for energy savings. what is your argument against consumers having a choice?
- Marsymars 1y ago
  Doorbells should actually provide power draw figures. I had to upgrade my doorbell transformer to support two Nest video doorbells, and they run 24/7, so I’d guess that they actually take more aggregate power than the dishwasher that I run once every couple days. Doorbells are an extra pain for consumers to measure power draw for - you can’t easily use a kill-a-watt metre as you have to hardwire them to a low-voltage power source. I don’t want my video resolution capped for energy-draw reasons, but I’d absolutely like to have some specs on typical power draw so that I can adequately compare doorbells.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]