4 ms·

So if I drum my fingers on the table, and my colleague gets visibly annoyed by it, these researchers think I am "talking" to him ?

anotheryou 1y ago
Of course that's communcation. "Talking" might be a bit overpromising, but definitely some comms. Don't nitpick, the core is true. :P eyeroll
- damnitbuilds 1y ago
  This is supposed to be science, terminology matters: They state that tentacle waving serves "as a communication system between cuttlefish." Merely showing that a thing reacts to another thing doing something in a certain way is NOT showing the existence of a communication system between them.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Weird. I would say that idle finger drumming is of course not communication.
  - anotheryou 1y ago
    > Communication is the process of exchanging information between individuals through various means, such as speaking, writing, or using body language. It involves a sender conveying a message to a receiver, who then interprets and responds to that message. (some ai said this, but I think AI should be perfect for defining common words :)
  - anotheryou 1y ago
    Well to be fair finger drumming can, but does not have to be purpuseful communication. You can drum your fingers because you are bored, not to signal to the outside that you are bored. Strictly speaking me picking up on your boredness because you drum your fingers makes it communication anyways I think :). A better example would be waving at someone, communicating "hello / look at me / I see you / here / I'm happy to see you / goodbye"
    - pixl97 1y ago
      Reading through this thread you can see how many people on HN don't understand non-verbal communication (note anotheryou, this isn't directed at you, you seem to get it). I do wonder if some of these people realize they may not be neurotypical, even if just slightly. A huge amount of human behaviors and communications are encoded how we move and how our face reacts. If for some reason you can't pick up on or interpret this, then human behavior can be quite confusing.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        In some sense everything is communication but that's going too far for "talking". In the more normal sense finger drumming can be communication but 90+% of the time it's not.
    - jjk166 1y ago
      It would likely be better to describe that as an observation than a communication. Even if someone were deliberately trying to convey they were bored via finger drumming, that communication only works in a social framework where we've mutually established a meaning to that behavior. If an alien were finger drumming on a table that would not necessarily indicate they were bored nonetheless that they wanted to convey that they were bored.
542354234235 1y ago
If I flip you off for being annoying, I would definitely be communicating something as specific as if I’d used words.
- rad_gruchalski 1y ago
  Yes, you’ll communicate your emotional immaturity. With words we might be able to solve the problem.
  - 7thaccount 1y ago
    Don't forget about sign language.
    - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
      Sign language is a language for people who have serious problems communicating with spoken language. So yes, definitely don’t forget about words communicated using sign language.
      - timschmidt 1y ago
        The signing community disagrees strongly with this take, as sign is an expressive artform in it's own right. Hearing folks can as easily appreciate a talented and expressive signer as a vocalist. And it's possible to express things through sign which are impossible to express with speech.
        thaumasiotes 1y ago
        Heather Dale wrote a song about Gawain and the Green Knight, and produced a video in which a deaf storyteller tells the story while the song plays. (I don't think the story is an exact match to the song, but I assume it's fairly close.) The storyteller uses some very impressive body language; it's great to see. It made me wonder if this is a particular strength of deaf storytelling, given that the audience has to be watching closely anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTtlPUNGs3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTtlPUNGs3Q
lucyv 1y ago
The word "talk" doesn't appear anywhere in the article besides the title.
- damnitbuilds 1y ago
  They grossly overstate what they have shown. What they have actually shown - that cuttlefish react to another cuttlefish waving its tentacles - is clearly not showing that tentacle waving "serves as a communication system between cuttlefish.
  - bongodongobob 1y ago
    I think you grossly overstate your expertise in marine communication studies.
  - sethammons 1y ago
    How would you define communication between two entities? What threshold of data needs to be conveyed? Can communication be unidirectional?
    - jjk166 1y ago
      Well data needs to be conveyed, as in there has to actually be a message. If one person yawns and that causes you to yawn, that is not evidence of communication - the first person was almost certainly not trying to send any information and you received none. Mimicking another's arm movement could be just as meaningless.
  - NonHyloMorph 1y ago
    No that is precicsely communication, but nothing indicazes that is "talk". Communication is the "lower" phenomenon ghen talk/speech. Involuntary body processes communicate something in us sapiensapiens and we are sure tjat animals communicate. But do they talk... if we say "talk" ("sprechen") that entails the whole of what natural languages do and is quite different.
    - 1y ago
dfxm12 1y ago
I'm not going to speak for these researchers, but I will suggest you read up on the concept of scare quotes.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

anotheryou 1y ago

Of course that's communcation. "Talking" might be a bit overpromising, but definitely some comms. Don't nitpick, the core is true. :P eyeroll

damnitbuilds 1y ago
This is supposed to be science, terminology matters: They state that tentacle waving serves "as a communication system between cuttlefish." Merely showing that a thing reacts to another thing doing something in a certain way is NOT showing the existence of a communication system between them.
Dylan16807 1y ago
Weird. I would say that idle finger drumming is of course not communication.
- anotheryou 1y ago
  > Communication is the process of exchanging information between individuals through various means, such as speaking, writing, or using body language. It involves a sender conveying a message to a receiver, who then interprets and responds to that message. (some ai said this, but I think AI should be perfect for defining common words :)
- anotheryou 1y ago
  Well to be fair finger drumming can, but does not have to be purpuseful communication. You can drum your fingers because you are bored, not to signal to the outside that you are bored. Strictly speaking me picking up on your boredness because you drum your fingers makes it communication anyways I think :). A better example would be waving at someone, communicating "hello / look at me / I see you / here / I'm happy to see you / goodbye"
  - pixl97 1y ago
    Reading through this thread you can see how many people on HN don't understand non-verbal communication (note anotheryou, this isn't directed at you, you seem to get it). I do wonder if some of these people realize they may not be neurotypical, even if just slightly. A huge amount of human behaviors and communications are encoded how we move and how our face reacts. If for some reason you can't pick up on or interpret this, then human behavior can be quite confusing.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      In some sense everything is communication but that's going too far for "talking". In the more normal sense finger drumming can be communication but 90+% of the time it's not.
  - jjk166 1y ago
    It would likely be better to describe that as an observation than a communication. Even if someone were deliberately trying to convey they were bored via finger drumming, that communication only works in a social framework where we've mutually established a meaning to that behavior. If an alien were finger drumming on a table that would not necessarily indicate they were bored nonetheless that they wanted to convey that they were bored.

542354234235 1y ago

If I flip you off for being annoying, I would definitely be communicating something as specific as if I’d used words.

rad_gruchalski 1y ago
Yes, you’ll communicate your emotional immaturity. With words we might be able to solve the problem.
- 7thaccount 1y ago
  Don't forget about sign language.
  - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
    Sign language is a language for people who have serious problems communicating with spoken language. So yes, definitely don’t forget about words communicated using sign language.
    - timschmidt 1y ago
      The signing community disagrees strongly with this take, as sign is an expressive artform in it's own right. Hearing folks can as easily appreciate a talented and expressive signer as a vocalist. And it's possible to express things through sign which are impossible to express with speech.
      - thaumasiotes 1y ago
        Heather Dale wrote a song about Gawain and the Green Knight, and produced a video in which a deaf storyteller tells the story while the song plays. (I don't think the story is an exact match to the song, but I assume it's fairly close.) The storyteller uses some very impressive body language; it's great to see. It made me wonder if this is a particular strength of deaf storytelling, given that the audience has to be watching closely anyway. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTtlPUNGs3Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTtlPUNGs3Q

lucyv 1y ago

The word "talk" doesn't appear anywhere in the article besides the title.

damnitbuilds 1y ago
They grossly overstate what they have shown. What they have actually shown - that cuttlefish react to another cuttlefish waving its tentacles - is clearly not showing that tentacle waving "serves as a communication system between cuttlefish.
- bongodongobob 1y ago
  I think you grossly overstate your expertise in marine communication studies.
- sethammons 1y ago
  How would you define communication between two entities? What threshold of data needs to be conveyed? Can communication be unidirectional?
  - jjk166 1y ago
    Well data needs to be conveyed, as in there has to actually be a message. If one person yawns and that causes you to yawn, that is not evidence of communication - the first person was almost certainly not trying to send any information and you received none. Mimicking another's arm movement could be just as meaningless.
- NonHyloMorph 1y ago
  No that is precicsely communication, but nothing indicazes that is "talk". Communication is the "lower" phenomenon ghen talk/speech. Involuntary body processes communicate something in us sapiensapiens and we are sure tjat animals communicate. But do they talk... if we say "talk" ("sprechen") that entails the whole of what natural languages do and is quite different.
  - 1y ago

dfxm12 1y ago

I'm not going to speak for these researchers, but I will suggest you read up on the concept of scare quotes.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]