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EnergyStar has nothing to do with "modernizing the grid". It is, however, why any new dishwasher in the US takes like 4 hours to finish a load, unless you put i

by timr 1y ago

EnergyStar has nothing to do with "modernizing the grid". It is, however, why any new dishwasher in the US takes like 4 hours to finish a load, unless you put it into non-bureaucratic mode. Meanwhile, we're driving energy consumption into the stratosphere with datacenters full of completely unregulated [1] GPUs that are mining scamcoins and generating incorrect search results. The usual libertarian point applies here: just because the government stops doing X doesn't mean that you automatically get less X. Particularly in the case of EnergyStar, I think it's well into the tail of diminishing returns on investment -- manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing. Its the sort of program that sounds good in theory, and maybe made sense at one point, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny. [1] I'm not arguing for regulation on GPUs...just pointing out that EnergyStar isn't touching the currently important part of the problem.

stonogo 1y ago
I think you'll find this is a result of the phosphate ban in the 90s. Detergent got less effective, so cycle times got longer to compensate. Same problem with clothes washers. A spoonfull of trisodium phosphate goes a long way, as long as you're ok with algae blooms downstream.
- timr 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
    I'm not seeing your point. Are you arguing that giving consumers a choice between a slow cheap cycle and an expensive fast cycle is somehow a bad thing?
    - timr 1y ago
      > Are you arguing that giving consumers a choice between a slow cheap cycle and an expensive fast cycle is somehow a bad thing? No. I'm saying that you don't need a government bureaucracy mandating it. Moreover, you definitely don't need one mandating ever-more-strict energy consumption limits on energy uses that are not driving the consumption problem, which inevitably run up against hard physical limits (e.g. warm water works better for washing dishes). Take the argument to the point of absurdity: should we have an EnergyStar rule on doorbell efficiency? The same line of reasoning applies, but by golly...if we had one, I'm sure we'd be sitting here arguing about why doorbells have to be barely audible in order to save the planet.
      - waynesonfire 1y ago
        Companies arn't going to spend money to implement modes that save electricity unless they have to. The motivation can come about as a result of market competition or governance. Sometimes you need governance because of market dynamics, e.g. monopolies. A better fix would be to expand the scope of Energy Star. I'm sure you'll still be able to find a suitable door bell just as easily as you discovered the quick wash button on your dish washer. And, to take your argument to absurdity, we'd still have lead paint and no nutrition labels.
        ethbr1 1y ago
        Another reason the market won't fix energy consumption on its own: externalized costs (onto the consumer's power bill). What is one of the most market-effective US regulations? Requiring a standardized EnergyGuide appliance label for average yearly energy costs. (Aka the yellow label https://www.energystar.gov/products/ask-the-experts/whats-difference-between-energy-guide-and-energy-star https://www.energystar.gov/products/ask-the-experts/whats-di... ) What did companies do before that? Installed the cheapest, least-efficient parts, put marketing copy on their boxes about how they were high efficiency, and then passed the costs onto unknowing consumers.
      - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
        > Take the argument to the point of absurdity: should we have an EnergyStar rule on doorbell efficiency? The same line of reasoning applies Except it doesn't really, because doorbells use very little current in pretty much any configuration. Appliances use a lot of current in most configurations, hence why many of them require a 240V/20A circuit versus the standard US 120V/15A circuit. Hence why the Energy Star program focuses on appliances. This is a real stretch as slippery slope arguments go. Pick something better.
        timr 1y ago
        The point of the doorbell metaphor was to illustrate that we're (over-)regulating a tiny sliver of the problem, and ignoring the big issues. To this point, you're making a big leap, going from "current consumption while running", to "overall energy usage". How many times a day are you running your dishwasher? I guarantee mine isn't in the top items in my life that consume electricity, in aggregate. While EnergyStar may have been a good idea when it was created (when energy prices were lower), it's no longer necessary in a world where cost of use significantly exceeds the cost of the appliance itself during its own lifetime. And if that isn't true, then you really have to ask what you're doing in the first place, regulating the energy use of an appliance that doesn't use much energy? I think there are certain aspects of EnergyStar that make sense -- the little label that tells me how many watt-hours an AC uses helps me compare products, so fine. Keep the little sticker. But it doesn't require an agency making silly rules about how much energy any dishwasher, doorbell or dongle can use. Let the market decide.
pmontra 1y ago
New dishwashers take a long time because they can be more energy and water efficient if they leave more time for detergents to degrade grease and the other stuff on dishes. If you don't have the time to wait for a slow cycle you use a fast one with the usual tradeoff of time vs money.
- timr 1y ago
  > New dishwashers take a long time because they can be more energy and water efficient if they leave more time for detergents to degrade grease and the other stuff on dishes. Yes, I know the reason, but now say it in a way that doesn't make the assumption that the rule is rational: EnergyStar continued to increase the efficiency requirements to the point where the only option manufacturers had was to make the default cycles much longer in order to get the same performance [1]. Every dishwasher therefore has a button that reverts to the pre-regulation mode, but it's usually named in doublespeak. Somehow I doubt that dishwashers are driving the power consumption curve in the US in 2025. But this is what bureaucracies do, unless given a self-destruct date. [1] for example, what's preventing EnergyStar from requiring that the water be cold? That would use way less energy!
  - cjaackie 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - LeafItAlone 1y ago
    I’m completely missing your point. Your original comment has been flagged so I don’t see it, so I’m missing context. I, and I would guess most consumers, are perfectly fine with the trade off of taking longer at lower cost (energy and water). I run mine overnight so it doesn’t matter. This is what I want as the default. On the few occasions I need it to run faster and am fine with the trade off of higher cost, I press a button and it’s there. What’s the problem?
malfist 1y ago
Your whole premise is wrong. Energy star doesn't make a company do anything besides disclosure. > manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing That's only true if customers can know how much energy their devices are going to use. Energy star forces that disclosure and that's it. Market forces are done everything else. Consumers prefer lower energy costs and devices that voluntarily achieve an energy star certification Also, "takes like 4 hours to finish a load", I have a new dishwasher, there is no combination of settings (except adding a delay) that will make a load take four hours. Max I can get is 2:36
- sillyfluke 1y ago
  Yes, and I'm not sure what the parent refers to when they say "non-bureaucratic mode", but if they mean literally turning the dial to another wash setting and this is supposed to be evidence of the outrageous inconvenience this program presents to the American consumer, well then they should not take offense if one considers their views to be the comical indignations of a "libertarian snowflake". And this is from someone who constantly switches the machine to non-default subhour wash programs 90% of the time (clothes not dishes).
  - timr 1y ago
    I’m neither a libertarian, nor am I a snowflake…and the argument I am making has absolutely nothing to do with the presence or absence of a specific button. When there is a huge government bureaucracy that is devoted to writing and implementing “efficiency standards”, then I question the value of the expense. Y’all do realize that other countries with energy efficient appliances don’t have this program, right? (It’s almost like it isn’t necessary to achieve the same outcome.)
    - sillyfluke 1y ago
      The second sentence in your initial post is literally whining about how dishwashers take 4 hours to finish unless you put in non-bureaucratic mode, as if this some huge inconvenience to the American household. And since you feel no need to clarify what you meant by "non-bureaucratic mode" in your additional comment we can only conclude that you were referring to literally turning a dial or pressing a button. Overblowing a minor inconvenience is the literal definition of a snowflake in how it's colloquilly used. Having failed to demonstrate convincingly how this greatly imconveniences the American household as consumer, you pivot to the inconvenience of the American household as taxpayer. But any serious discussion of that point requires you to discuss the concrete cost of this certification program compared to all other government services. This, you also do not do. As for other countries not having this program, what do you think the purpose of the "EU energy label program" is?
silverlake 1y ago
You’re getting downvoted because you’re making a few mistakes. 1) Energy Star is not a mandate, it’s a certificate if you want it. 25% of dishwashers are not ES at Home Depot. 2) Dishwashers are slow for a few reasons, a big one is gov’t stopped use of strong detergents. The new one needs time to dissolve foods. 3) “why solve X when Y is still a problem” is always a weak argument. 4) “markets will solve it” doesn’t always work because the individual cost of an energy guzzling appliance is a few extra dollars, but the collective cost is high. The difference between appliances in 1970 vs now is immense. My dishwasher is so quiet we double check if it’s on. It uses less water than handwashing. Even the Chamber of Commerce (big business lobby) asked them to keep Energy Star.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
singleshot_ 1y ago
False; my brand new dishwasher from Bosch takes approximately two hours and ten minutes to complete a load of dishes on the standard mode.
jiehong 1y ago
EnergyStar on GPUs wouldn’t be that bad nowadays!
- timr 1y ago
  I actually sort of agree. If you're going to put the regulations in place, at least do it where it matters!
reverendsteveii 1y ago
Why is it that every time libertarians win a victory for my freedom my life gets harder and worse?

by timr 1y ago

stonogo 1y ago

I think you'll find this is a result of the phosphate ban in the 90s. Detergent got less effective, so cycle times got longer to compensate. Same problem with clothes washers. A spoonfull of trisodium phosphate goes a long way, as long as you're ok with algae blooms downstream.

timr 1y ago
[flagged]
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  I'm not seeing your point. Are you arguing that giving consumers a choice between a slow cheap cycle and an expensive fast cycle is somehow a bad thing?
  - timr 1y ago
    > Are you arguing that giving consumers a choice between a slow cheap cycle and an expensive fast cycle is somehow a bad thing? No. I'm saying that you don't need a government bureaucracy mandating it. Moreover, you definitely don't need one mandating ever-more-strict energy consumption limits on energy uses that are not driving the consumption problem, which inevitably run up against hard physical limits (e.g. warm water works better for washing dishes). Take the argument to the point of absurdity: should we have an EnergyStar rule on doorbell efficiency? The same line of reasoning applies, but by golly...if we had one, I'm sure we'd be sitting here arguing about why doorbells have to be barely audible in order to save the planet.
    - waynesonfire 1y ago
      Companies arn't going to spend money to implement modes that save electricity unless they have to. The motivation can come about as a result of market competition or governance. Sometimes you need governance because of market dynamics, e.g. monopolies. A better fix would be to expand the scope of Energy Star. I'm sure you'll still be able to find a suitable door bell just as easily as you discovered the quick wash button on your dish washer. And, to take your argument to absurdity, we'd still have lead paint and no nutrition labels.
      - ethbr1 1y ago
        Another reason the market won't fix energy consumption on its own: externalized costs (onto the consumer's power bill). What is one of the most market-effective US regulations? Requiring a standardized EnergyGuide appliance label for average yearly energy costs. (Aka the yellow label https://www.energystar.gov/products/ask-the-experts/whats-difference-between-energy-guide-and-energy-star https://www.energystar.gov/products/ask-the-experts/whats-di... ) What did companies do before that? Installed the cheapest, least-efficient parts, put marketing copy on their boxes about how they were high efficiency, and then passed the costs onto unknowing consumers.
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
      > Take the argument to the point of absurdity: should we have an EnergyStar rule on doorbell efficiency? The same line of reasoning applies Except it doesn't really, because doorbells use very little current in pretty much any configuration. Appliances use a lot of current in most configurations, hence why many of them require a 240V/20A circuit versus the standard US 120V/15A circuit. Hence why the Energy Star program focuses on appliances. This is a real stretch as slippery slope arguments go. Pick something better.
      - timr 1y ago
        The point of the doorbell metaphor was to illustrate that we're (over-)regulating a tiny sliver of the problem, and ignoring the big issues. To this point, you're making a big leap, going from "current consumption while running", to "overall energy usage". How many times a day are you running your dishwasher? I guarantee mine isn't in the top items in my life that consume electricity, in aggregate. While EnergyStar may have been a good idea when it was created (when energy prices were lower), it's no longer necessary in a world where cost of use significantly exceeds the cost of the appliance itself during its own lifetime. And if that isn't true, then you really have to ask what you're doing in the first place, regulating the energy use of an appliance that doesn't use much energy? I think there are certain aspects of EnergyStar that make sense -- the little label that tells me how many watt-hours an AC uses helps me compare products, so fine. Keep the little sticker. But it doesn't require an agency making silly rules about how much energy any dishwasher, doorbell or dongle can use. Let the market decide.

pmontra 1y ago

New dishwashers take a long time because they can be more energy and water efficient if they leave more time for detergents to degrade grease and the other stuff on dishes. If you don't have the time to wait for a slow cycle you use a fast one with the usual tradeoff of time vs money.

timr 1y ago
> New dishwashers take a long time because they can be more energy and water efficient if they leave more time for detergents to degrade grease and the other stuff on dishes. Yes, I know the reason, but now say it in a way that doesn't make the assumption that the rule is rational: EnergyStar continued to increase the efficiency requirements to the point where the only option manufacturers had was to make the default cycles much longer in order to get the same performance [1]. Every dishwasher therefore has a button that reverts to the pre-regulation mode, but it's usually named in doublespeak. Somehow I doubt that dishwashers are driving the power consumption curve in the US in 2025. But this is what bureaucracies do, unless given a self-destruct date. [1] for example, what's preventing EnergyStar from requiring that the water be cold? That would use way less energy!
- cjaackie 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- LeafItAlone 1y ago
  I’m completely missing your point. Your original comment has been flagged so I don’t see it, so I’m missing context. I, and I would guess most consumers, are perfectly fine with the trade off of taking longer at lower cost (energy and water). I run mine overnight so it doesn’t matter. This is what I want as the default. On the few occasions I need it to run faster and am fine with the trade off of higher cost, I press a button and it’s there. What’s the problem?

malfist 1y ago

Your whole premise is wrong. Energy star doesn't make a company do anything besides disclosure. > manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing That's only true if customers can know how much energy their devices are going to use. Energy star forces that disclosure and that's it. Market forces are done everything else. Consumers prefer lower energy costs and devices that voluntarily achieve an energy star certification Also, "takes like 4 hours to finish a load", I have a new dishwasher, there is no combination of settings (except adding a delay) that will make a load take four hours. Max I can get is 2:36

sillyfluke 1y ago
Yes, and I'm not sure what the parent refers to when they say "non-bureaucratic mode", but if they mean literally turning the dial to another wash setting and this is supposed to be evidence of the outrageous inconvenience this program presents to the American consumer, well then they should not take offense if one considers their views to be the comical indignations of a "libertarian snowflake". And this is from someone who constantly switches the machine to non-default subhour wash programs 90% of the time (clothes not dishes).
- timr 1y ago
  I’m neither a libertarian, nor am I a snowflake…and the argument I am making has absolutely nothing to do with the presence or absence of a specific button. When there is a huge government bureaucracy that is devoted to writing and implementing “efficiency standards”, then I question the value of the expense. Y’all do realize that other countries with energy efficient appliances don’t have this program, right? (It’s almost like it isn’t necessary to achieve the same outcome.)
  - sillyfluke 1y ago
    The second sentence in your initial post is literally whining about how dishwashers take 4 hours to finish unless you put in non-bureaucratic mode, as if this some huge inconvenience to the American household. And since you feel no need to clarify what you meant by "non-bureaucratic mode" in your additional comment we can only conclude that you were referring to literally turning a dial or pressing a button. Overblowing a minor inconvenience is the literal definition of a snowflake in how it's colloquilly used. Having failed to demonstrate convincingly how this greatly imconveniences the American household as consumer, you pivot to the inconvenience of the American household as taxpayer. But any serious discussion of that point requires you to discuss the concrete cost of this certification program compared to all other government services. This, you also do not do. As for other countries not having this program, what do you think the purpose of the "EU energy label program" is?

silverlake 1y ago

You’re getting downvoted because you’re making a few mistakes. 1) Energy Star is not a mandate, it’s a certificate if you want it. 25% of dishwashers are not ES at Home Depot. 2) Dishwashers are slow for a few reasons, a big one is gov’t stopped use of strong detergents. The new one needs time to dissolve foods. 3) “why solve X when Y is still a problem” is always a weak argument. 4) “markets will solve it” doesn’t always work because the individual cost of an energy guzzling appliance is a few extra dollars, but the collective cost is high. The difference between appliances in 1970 vs now is immense. My dishwasher is so quiet we double check if it’s on. It uses less water than handwashing. Even the Chamber of Commerce (big business lobby) asked them to keep Energy Star.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

singleshot_ 1y ago

False; my brand new dishwasher from Bosch takes approximately two hours and ten minutes to complete a load of dishes on the standard mode.

jiehong 1y ago

EnergyStar on GPUs wouldn’t be that bad nowadays!

timr 1y ago
I actually sort of agree. If you're going to put the regulations in place, at least do it where it matters!

reverendsteveii 1y ago

Why is it that every time libertarians win a victory for my freedom my life gets harder and worse?