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The best part about energy star I think was that it allows me to clearly see the energy consumption of the product. Without that it might not be as straightforw
by adzm 1y ago
The best part about energy star I think was that it allows me to clearly see the energy consumption of the product. Without that it might not be as straightforward to find, and I'd probably be more skeptical of its accuracy
- yborg 1y agoThat's probably the main reason they want to do away with it. Eliminating any semblance of independent factual information across the board means that the truth becomes whatever the best bankrolled says it is. I could see them eliminating the MPG/eMPG ratings on vehicles next.
- mike_hearn 1y agoIt's easy and more direct for Consumer Reports style companies to measure energy consumption themselves, instead of assuming that the producer's self-reports are fully accurate because there's a regulator who may or may not be paying attention.
- eesmith 1y agoCR only reviews products after they are available on the market, it does not review all products on the market, and access to the reviews require a subscription. How do you compare three hot water heaters when all three brands are "refreshed" each year, so the specific models aren't listed on CR? It's easier for consumer groups like CR to back-stop the regulatory agencies by identifying and reporting fraudulent self-reports.
- mike_hearn 1y agoAccess to the Energy Star reviews requires a 'subscription' too, in the form of a tax. The difference is that people who aren't in the market and don't want to buy it are forced to, for which there is no moral basis. If there are products that don't have reviews at all, just don't buy them in favor of those that do. In markets where consumers are choosy (e.g. films) companies often ensure reviewers have early access to products to ensure reviews are plentiful.
- ethbr1 1y ago> Access to the Energy Star reviews requires a 'subscription' too, in the form of a tax. You're failing to consider the alternative no-EnergyStar scenario -- higher aggregate electricity demand, requiring more power plants, so everyone pays more for power. Either you pay pennies to promote efficiency, or you pay quarters for energy infrastructure.
- mike_hearn 1y agoEfficiency savings make no difference to aggregated demand so that is irrelevant. See Jevon's Paradox, which absolutely applies to electricity.
- ethbr1 1y agoSo you're saying people will install two water heaters if they buy a more efficient one? Not sure this is the elastic droid that paradox is looking for.
- mike_hearn 1y agoNo, that's not what I'm saying. Jevon's Paradox has a good Wikipedia page that describes the problem. Efficiency improvements don't reduce consumption in aggregate, because the lower demand causes lower prices that then unlock new use cases that create more demand that pushes up usage again.
- ethbr1 1y agoAs the wikipedia page points out, this assumes a highly price elastic good. Household energy use is not such a good, because most uses have fixed utility. Very few people are going to cool their house down to 10C because the price of cooling to 15C decreased. Nor is their overall energy use budget-capped. (Outside of low income AC and/or heating use cases)
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- i80and 1y agoConsumer Reports is great. I love them. They inherently have a limited testing capacity, and are not even able to look at a quarter of current products in the categories I'm usually looking at. They're just no substitute for things like Energy Star
- mike_hearn 1y agoThere are lots of companies offering product reviews. There is no requirement that every single product be reviewed by all of them. And, there are a million things someone might want to know about a product, there's nothing special about energy usage that justifies a whole special government programme. Otherwise where does it end? Why not demand new taxes to pay for reviews of the GUI friendliness of every single electronic product? Or movies? The arguments being made in this thread would apply to an enormous number of questions someone might ask about a product.
- EasyMark 1y agoSure it is, but that's not going to happen in reality. Private ventures are almost always more efficient, however they are only efficient if they exist, and they only exist if they make enough money to exist. They can't test all the models of all the products out there, especially not "independently", it's not commercially viable.
- SchemaLoad 1y agoMost other countries have their own version of this. If the product sells internationally you could use their tested values.
- hiimkeks 1y agoThe USA are freeriding the benefits of EU's regulation, sounds like they (EU) should raise tariffs for that! (if you can't tell whether that is sarcasm that might be because I also don't know)
- TeMPOraL 1y agoIt's called patents and now I wish EU had patented the core aspects of GDPR. Like, "Method of requesting and receiving informed consent" and, more importantly, "Method of requesting and receiving informed consent on a computer".
- Muromec 1y agoOne specific thing is maybe a patent, but the whole liberal democracy with laws and all that could be run as a franchise.
- Muromec 1y agoYou will most probably get a different version of the same product (cheaper and worse) compared to one sold in EU. It takes one market participant to do this and everyone else will have to follow, otherwise consumers will buy the cheapest one.
- LeafItAlone 1y agoYes. We already get different products based on retailer (Walmart gets different versions than direct from manufacturer or other retailers on many products). There are even claims that Black Friday products are even special runs that are slightly different to lower cost.
- potato3732842 1y agoAre you serious? First: Those numbers are all BS and have been for decades. If you want damp clothes, dirty dishes and refrigerated to within a blond one of the legal minimum food then you can trust the numbers. If you want your appliances to do their jobs in a satisfactory manner you're going to find yourself turning them up (whatever that means will vary by appliance) and consequently using a lot more energy. Second: Those yellow stickers are from the FTC, not the EPA.
- LeafItAlone 1y ago>First: Those numbers are all BS and have been for decades. If you want damp clothes, dirty dishes and refrigerated to within a blond one of the legal minimum food then you can trust the numbers. If you want your appliances to do their jobs in a satisfactory manner you're going to find yourself turning them up (whatever that means will vary by appliance) and consequently using a lot more energy. I have had zero of these issues. Can you be more specific about when you have encountered them yourself?
- sokoloff 1y agoThat's almost certainly the yellow Energy Guide sticker you're praising (and I agree). That's not the subject of this article.
- ethbr1 1y agoRef: https://www.energystar.gov/products/ask-the-experts/whats-difference-between-energy-guide-and-energy-star https://www.energystar.gov/products/ask-the-experts/whats-di...
- adzm 1y agoYou are correct; I mistakenly assumed they were all administered under the same program.
- LUmBULtERA 1y agoThanks! I read the article and a lot of these comments, and I was thinking the whole time that Energy Guide was going away. As long as Energy Guide is sticking around, I really don't care about the "Energy Star" specific item.