6 ms·

It seems like everything this administration thinks will make America better somehow also involves making everything I buy and use more expensive. Except maybe

It seems like everything this administration thinks will make America better somehow also involves making everything I buy and use more expensive. Except maybe gasoline, although not as much as one would think.

olalonde 1y ago
There's no doubts tariffs will make everything more expensive but I don't see how shutting down this program would affect costs. Plus, a private certification program could easily fill in the void.
- hristov 1y ago
  Not sure about that. Industry created, private energy efficiency programs have often been nothing more than industry cheerleaders.
- TylerE 1y ago
  Is there a single rocket certification program in any industry that is actually pro-consumer? I’m failing to think of an example. Private industry cannot be trusted to act in any interest but their own bottom line.
  - olalonde 1y ago
    Energy Star, as a matter of fact, is almost entirely privately run. Certification is voluntary and testing/verification is done by private labs. Replace government by some industry consortium or non-profit and not much as changed.
- ncr100 1y ago
  Appliances can use less energy of the mfrs are encouraged to design that. Energy Star was that encouragement.
- hotpotatoe 1y ago
  Here is a bright idea, keep the existing program that works and therefore we wouldn’t need some mythical private certification program that doesn’t exist and probably be a scam if it did.
  - hakfoo 1y ago
    I can only think of one private scheme in this space that's worked well - 80 Plus. For a voluntary program, it's been pretty broadly adopted, and it created an implicit factor of "why is it not certified" that puts pressure on the worst junk products. Across the board though, PC PSU quality has gone up quite a bit in the last 20-25 years though.
    - ndriscoll 1y ago
      80 plus doesn't cover idle efficiency though, so unless you only run your computer when compiling or gaming and then turn it back off, it probably doesn't capture the fact that modern computers are basically completely idle at all times.
    - amalcon 1y ago
      UL certification has been pretty successful in an adjacent space (fire safety, notably of electronics but it covers other things too). That has been regressing lately, though.
  - mrbigbob 1y ago
    Why do we have to reinvent the wheel! We have the program and its been established for over 3 decades. Im so tired of the arguement of its not perfect guess we should get rid of it, start from scratch, and the new system will have none of those problems. This isnt about government excess spending either. If the government was really concerned about excess spending they would take a real deep look at DOD spending and the number of cost plus contracts
- mindslight 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    > dishwashers that no longer have straightforward heating elements for drying I love how Americans just can't figure this out, as if the German brands that are all three of better, cheaper to buy, and cheaper to operate simply don't exist. The American consumer is a person who cannot comprehend thermodynamics.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      Perhaps if you referenced something concrete there would be more to talk about? I'm only aware of Bosch, which uses some type of humidity-absorbing crystals that then desiccate with the heat of the next cycle. The marketing implication that this doesn't use energy would seem to be playing on that lack of understanding of thermodynamics. Never mind costing 2x or more for the models with this feature, still seeing complaints of people online saying they don't get the dishes dry, combined with the all-too-common refrain that you have to use "rise aid" - ie elective chemical residue. (I edited my original comment to focus on the failure of functionality over the lack of a specific mechanism)
    - ethersteeds 1y ago
      With a broad brush, German brands are more expensive to buy, as a premium for the mythical quality reputation which never seems diminished by the high failure rates and incredibly expensive repair costs. Cutting edge technologies can eke out higher efficiencies, but at the cost of all the downsides of new tech - cost premium, unproven designs, potential evolutionary dead end. I'm in no way in favor of ending Energy Star, but it's risible to assert that stupidity is the only the only reason a consumer would favor a straightforward, easily repaired design over an over-engineered turd stuffed with controller boards that regularly go bad and cost more than the appliance is worth to replace.
  - sethherr 1y ago
    This is laughably incorrect. I have purchased multiple high end refrigerators in the past few years and used energy star to determine the opex of them - it influences the high end too.
- lovich 1y ago
  > I don't see how shutting down this program would affect costs > Plus, a private certification program could easily fill in the void. Ah there’s your problem. It turns out private solutions actually cost money, and relying on a private certification program to “fill the void” as you say, is what actually changes the costs. Alternatively if you believe that private corporate actions are always free when comparing it to government services, then this is a net zero change
- tzs 1y ago
  It won't necessarily affect purchase costs but it could affect operating costs. When I needed a new washing machine a year or so ago there were many machines that were very similar except for large variations in energy efficiency. If it weren't for the Energy Star labels I almost certainly would have ended up with a machine with higher operating costs.
ncr100 1y ago
[flagged]
tonyhart7 1y ago
they cut cost everything that seemed "un-critical"
matthewdgreen 1y ago
Gasoline will end up more expensive, too. The current oil glut is being deliberately engineered by OPEC+, which is pumping excess oil in order to bankrupt higher-cost suppliers. We should be using this time to refill the strategic oil reserve and (simultaneously) to stabilize prices at a level that guarantees continued investment -- but we're not.
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  And migrate off oil consumption as much as possible while energy is cheaper (to bootstrap manufacturing/construction of other energy production systems). If the costs are down now because of OPEC+, then they'll go up. That's when we want to be able to sell (improving our trade deficit, a stated goal of this administration) to other countries. The US is the world's largest oil consumer, we consume 50% more than China. If we reduced our rate of consumption we could shift more towards exporting and be the ones controlling prices, since the US is also the biggest producer.
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    Oil production is a slave to prices. The majority of oil worldwide is quite expensive to extract - shale in the US, oil sands in Canada/Venezuela, etc. And so low prices reduce our ability to produce oil which, in turn, sends prices up. And vice versa, high prices enable even the junkiest reserves to be extracted which sends prices down. And the more you produce, the more expensive it becomes to produce - the reason for this is that you're always going to pick the low hanging fruit first, but as you run out of that you're left picking higher and higher up the tree. And while we are the world's largest producer of oil, we're also the world's 2nd largest importer of oil as well!
    - Jtsummers 1y ago
      > And while we are the world's largest producer of oil, we're also the world's 2nd largest importer of oil as well! Even more reason to reduce our oil dependency if the real economic goal is to improve our trade deficit.
- 1y ago

olalonde 1y ago

There's no doubts tariffs will make everything more expensive but I don't see how shutting down this program would affect costs. Plus, a private certification program could easily fill in the void.

hristov 1y ago
Not sure about that. Industry created, private energy efficiency programs have often been nothing more than industry cheerleaders.
TylerE 1y ago
Is there a single rocket certification program in any industry that is actually pro-consumer? I’m failing to think of an example. Private industry cannot be trusted to act in any interest but their own bottom line.
- olalonde 1y ago
  Energy Star, as a matter of fact, is almost entirely privately run. Certification is voluntary and testing/verification is done by private labs. Replace government by some industry consortium or non-profit and not much as changed.
ncr100 1y ago
Appliances can use less energy of the mfrs are encouraged to design that. Energy Star was that encouragement.
hotpotatoe 1y ago
Here is a bright idea, keep the existing program that works and therefore we wouldn’t need some mythical private certification program that doesn’t exist and probably be a scam if it did.
- hakfoo 1y ago
  I can only think of one private scheme in this space that's worked well - 80 Plus. For a voluntary program, it's been pretty broadly adopted, and it created an implicit factor of "why is it not certified" that puts pressure on the worst junk products. Across the board though, PC PSU quality has gone up quite a bit in the last 20-25 years though.
  - ndriscoll 1y ago
    80 plus doesn't cover idle efficiency though, so unless you only run your computer when compiling or gaming and then turn it back off, it probably doesn't capture the fact that modern computers are basically completely idle at all times.
  - amalcon 1y ago
    UL certification has been pretty successful in an adjacent space (fire safety, notably of electronics but it covers other things too). That has been regressing lately, though.
- mrbigbob 1y ago
  Why do we have to reinvent the wheel! We have the program and its been established for over 3 decades. Im so tired of the arguement of its not perfect guess we should get rid of it, start from scratch, and the new system will have none of those problems. This isnt about government excess spending either. If the government was really concerned about excess spending they would take a real deep look at DOD spending and the number of cost plus contracts
mindslight 1y ago
[flagged]
- jeffbee 1y ago
  > dishwashers that no longer have straightforward heating elements for drying I love how Americans just can't figure this out, as if the German brands that are all three of better, cheaper to buy, and cheaper to operate simply don't exist. The American consumer is a person who cannot comprehend thermodynamics.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    Perhaps if you referenced something concrete there would be more to talk about? I'm only aware of Bosch, which uses some type of humidity-absorbing crystals that then desiccate with the heat of the next cycle. The marketing implication that this doesn't use energy would seem to be playing on that lack of understanding of thermodynamics. Never mind costing 2x or more for the models with this feature, still seeing complaints of people online saying they don't get the dishes dry, combined with the all-too-common refrain that you have to use "rise aid" - ie elective chemical residue. (I edited my original comment to focus on the failure of functionality over the lack of a specific mechanism)
  - ethersteeds 1y ago
    With a broad brush, German brands are more expensive to buy, as a premium for the mythical quality reputation which never seems diminished by the high failure rates and incredibly expensive repair costs. Cutting edge technologies can eke out higher efficiencies, but at the cost of all the downsides of new tech - cost premium, unproven designs, potential evolutionary dead end. I'm in no way in favor of ending Energy Star, but it's risible to assert that stupidity is the only the only reason a consumer would favor a straightforward, easily repaired design over an over-engineered turd stuffed with controller boards that regularly go bad and cost more than the appliance is worth to replace.
- sethherr 1y ago
  This is laughably incorrect. I have purchased multiple high end refrigerators in the past few years and used energy star to determine the opex of them - it influences the high end too.
lovich 1y ago
> I don't see how shutting down this program would affect costs > Plus, a private certification program could easily fill in the void. Ah there’s your problem. It turns out private solutions actually cost money, and relying on a private certification program to “fill the void” as you say, is what actually changes the costs. Alternatively if you believe that private corporate actions are always free when comparing it to government services, then this is a net zero change
tzs 1y ago
It won't necessarily affect purchase costs but it could affect operating costs. When I needed a new washing machine a year or so ago there were many machines that were very similar except for large variations in energy efficiency. If it weren't for the Energy Star labels I almost certainly would have ended up with a machine with higher operating costs.

ncr100 1y ago

[flagged]

tonyhart7 1y ago

they cut cost everything that seemed "un-critical"

matthewdgreen 1y ago

Gasoline will end up more expensive, too. The current oil glut is being deliberately engineered by OPEC+, which is pumping excess oil in order to bankrupt higher-cost suppliers. We should be using this time to refill the strategic oil reserve and (simultaneously) to stabilize prices at a level that guarantees continued investment -- but we're not.

Jtsummers 1y ago
And migrate off oil consumption as much as possible while energy is cheaper (to bootstrap manufacturing/construction of other energy production systems). If the costs are down now because of OPEC+, then they'll go up. That's when we want to be able to sell (improving our trade deficit, a stated goal of this administration) to other countries. The US is the world's largest oil consumer, we consume 50% more than China. If we reduced our rate of consumption we could shift more towards exporting and be the ones controlling prices, since the US is also the biggest producer.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Oil production is a slave to prices. The majority of oil worldwide is quite expensive to extract - shale in the US, oil sands in Canada/Venezuela, etc. And so low prices reduce our ability to produce oil which, in turn, sends prices up. And vice versa, high prices enable even the junkiest reserves to be extracted which sends prices down. And the more you produce, the more expensive it becomes to produce - the reason for this is that you're always going to pick the low hanging fruit first, but as you run out of that you're left picking higher and higher up the tree. And while we are the world's largest producer of oil, we're also the world's 2nd largest importer of oil as well!
  - Jtsummers 1y ago
    > And while we are the world's largest producer of oil, we're also the world's 2nd largest importer of oil as well! Even more reason to reduce our oil dependency if the real economic goal is to improve our trade deficit.
1y ago