4 ms·

I'm going with little black hole

by eth0up 1y ago

schrectacular 1y ago
I mean how else would the aliens have gotten here?
- andrewflnr 1y ago
  Only mostly joking: I think the most likely way aliens could be in the solar system is a relict machine civilization from a life-bearing phase of Mars or Venus. Crazy? Yes. More likely than successful interstellar travel? Still yes.
  - jaggederest 1y ago
    I mean, interstellar travel isn't outside the realm of possibility. We see all kinds of weird junk in the deep background, quasars 13 billion years old. Even for a type 1+ civilization, let alone a dyson sphere, the energy requirements are not insane. Couple hundred thousand tons of antimatter and matter, specific impulse in the millions, get there. Time dilation solves all your "being alive to see the sights" issues, and as long as you don't leave anyone behind that you care about and bring enough antimatter all the other problems are solvable.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - dataflow 1y ago
      How does the mechanics of antimatter propulsion work? Is the idea that the momentum of the released photons is enough to push you in the opposite direction at relativistic speeds? And that you presumably somehow shield yourself from that radiation through a perfect paraboloidic reflector of some sort?
      - jaggederest 1y ago
        Yes, as far as I'm aware that's essentially the theory. A pion torch uses pions through a magnetic nozzle to achieve ~10^6 Isp with the downside that lots of prompt radiation (gamma mostly but I'm no expert) goes every direction.
    - andrewflnr 1y ago
      It's not just about the energy, though, even if I think it's a bigger problem than you do. If you get up to a decent speed where time dilation helps, then the interstellar medium becomes a serious problem. I think there were some other weird problems, too. I'm not saying interstellar travel is impossible, I'm just saying an early technological civilization in our solar system is more possible.
      - jaggederest 1y ago
        I'm not sure about that. Earlier life? Almost certainly I think, I tend towards panspermia on space rocks as being likely at least within the solar system. I think the likelihood that there was some technological civilization that evolved here before ours and we haven't found any trace to be extremely low. Lower than "there are people with warp drives who visited our solar system at some point".
        andrewflnr 1y ago
        There is truly no reason to believe warp drives can exist. At least life, even very early life, has an existence proof.
        jaggederest 1y ago
        Now you understand how skeptical I am. 10^9 to 1 against it :)
        andrewflnr 1y ago
        I see your numbers, but I still don't understand the reasoning. We know technological civilizations can exist, the only question is the timeline. We don't know that interstellar travel is feasible under any timeline at all. How can you rate the second one more likely? (And as far as detecting relict machines: our astronomy is really not that thorough. They wouldn't even have to be hiding. Have we conclusively analyzed every little point of light in the asteroid belt? No.)
  - Terr_ 1y ago
    > the most likely way aliens could be in the solar system is a relict machine civilization from a life-bearing phase of Mars or Venus Or they left behind swarms of nanobots, which we call biological life. :p
xeonmc 1y ago
If you jump into it you restart the universe.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- jajko 1y ago
  That would be a poor design, restart buttons all over the place and future existence would be a constant minigame about avoiding gazillions of them. Nobody wants to go back to plasma. Then you know god is a vicious cruel kid with a big magnifier glass fooling around his little ant farm.
karim79 1y ago
I agree. I'm also not sure why this isn't the leading theory of what's causing the gravitational weirdness, yet still manages to evade our detection. (Disclaimer: I know nothing)
- andrewflnr 1y ago
  Because it's wildly sensational, in particular being the first observation of an object of that type, and a regular boring planet fits the evidence just as well (it would be crazy hard to see at that distance, so it would be no surprise we haven't yet). I'm a fan of the idea too, but it needs a lot more evidence to take it seriously.

I'm going with little black hole

by eth0up 1y ago

I'm going with little black hole

schrectacular 1y ago

I mean how else would the aliens have gotten here?

andrewflnr 1y ago
Only mostly joking: I think the most likely way aliens could be in the solar system is a relict machine civilization from a life-bearing phase of Mars or Venus. Crazy? Yes. More likely than successful interstellar travel? Still yes.
- jaggederest 1y ago
  I mean, interstellar travel isn't outside the realm of possibility. We see all kinds of weird junk in the deep background, quasars 13 billion years old. Even for a type 1+ civilization, let alone a dyson sphere, the energy requirements are not insane. Couple hundred thousand tons of antimatter and matter, specific impulse in the millions, get there. Time dilation solves all your "being alive to see the sights" issues, and as long as you don't leave anyone behind that you care about and bring enough antimatter all the other problems are solvable.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - dataflow 1y ago
    How does the mechanics of antimatter propulsion work? Is the idea that the momentum of the released photons is enough to push you in the opposite direction at relativistic speeds? And that you presumably somehow shield yourself from that radiation through a perfect paraboloidic reflector of some sort?
    - jaggederest 1y ago
      Yes, as far as I'm aware that's essentially the theory. A pion torch uses pions through a magnetic nozzle to achieve ~10^6 Isp with the downside that lots of prompt radiation (gamma mostly but I'm no expert) goes every direction.
  - andrewflnr 1y ago
    It's not just about the energy, though, even if I think it's a bigger problem than you do. If you get up to a decent speed where time dilation helps, then the interstellar medium becomes a serious problem. I think there were some other weird problems, too. I'm not saying interstellar travel is impossible, I'm just saying an early technological civilization in our solar system is more possible.
    - jaggederest 1y ago
      I'm not sure about that. Earlier life? Almost certainly I think, I tend towards panspermia on space rocks as being likely at least within the solar system. I think the likelihood that there was some technological civilization that evolved here before ours and we haven't found any trace to be extremely low. Lower than "there are people with warp drives who visited our solar system at some point".
      - andrewflnr 1y ago
        There is truly no reason to believe warp drives can exist. At least life, even very early life, has an existence proof.
        jaggederest 1y ago
        Now you understand how skeptical I am. 10^9 to 1 against it :)
        andrewflnr 1y ago
        I see your numbers, but I still don't understand the reasoning. We know technological civilizations can exist, the only question is the timeline. We don't know that interstellar travel is feasible under any timeline at all. How can you rate the second one more likely? (And as far as detecting relict machines: our astronomy is really not that thorough. They wouldn't even have to be hiding. Have we conclusively analyzed every little point of light in the asteroid belt? No.)
- Terr_ 1y ago
  > the most likely way aliens could be in the solar system is a relict machine civilization from a life-bearing phase of Mars or Venus Or they left behind swarms of nanobots, which we call biological life. :p

xeonmc 1y ago

If you jump into it you restart the universe.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jajko 1y ago
That would be a poor design, restart buttons all over the place and future existence would be a constant minigame about avoiding gazillions of them. Nobody wants to go back to plasma. Then you know god is a vicious cruel kid with a big magnifier glass fooling around his little ant farm.

karim79 1y ago

I agree. I'm also not sure why this isn't the leading theory of what's causing the gravitational weirdness, yet still manages to evade our detection. (Disclaimer: I know nothing)

andrewflnr 1y ago
Because it's wildly sensational, in particular being the first observation of an object of that type, and a regular boring planet fits the evidence just as well (it would be crazy hard to see at that distance, so it would be no surprise we haven't yet). I'm a fan of the idea too, but it needs a lot more evidence to take it seriously.