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> There are no moral hazards when it comes to social welfare programs. This is a wild statement. Of course people take advantage of welfare programs. Of course

by gred 1y ago

> There are no moral hazards when it comes to social welfare programs. This is a wild statement. Of course people take advantage of welfare programs. Of course welfare programs have unintended consequences and sometimes encourage immoral or anti-social behavior. That doesn't mean they're all bad or that they need to be completely eliminated, but leading with this obvious falsehood made it very hard to read the rest of your comment. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/covid-19-fraud-enforcement-task-force-releases-2024-report https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/covid-19-fraud-enfor...

camgunz 1y ago
This is exactly why I stake out such a strong position, so that positions like this poke their heads up. Individuals getting benefits when they're ineligible accounts for tiny amounts of the total fraud in these programs. Time after time we discover at least one of two things: - The effort/cost required to reduce fraud usually overshadows the cost of the fraud itself and also dramatically reduces the benefits of the program. There were 640,000 SNAP fraud investigations in 2014 [0]. If they cost $1,000 each that's $640m, and I bet they cost more! - The vast majority of fraud is either criminal, retailer, or both [1] The "moral hazard" angle of these programs is wildly overplayed. You don't hear anything about: - criminal trafficking - retailer fraud - program benefits There's political reasons for this, but it doesn't matter. Our brainrot on social programs is intense. > https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/covid-19-fraud-enforcement-task-force-releases-2024-report https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/covid-19-fraud-enfor... Looking at the fact sheet linked from that release [2], that stat that jumps out to me is 3,500 individuals charged totaling $1.4b in stolen CARES Act funds (this isn't a direct stat, but the numbers only get worse if we presume even more money from this and other programs was stolen), which is $400k/individual charged. It doesn't really seem possible for a person or household to have bilked the government for $400k under the individual benefits of the CARES Act [3]. We're looking at white collar fraud here, again a thing you never hear anything about. Finally, we should view some levels of fraud as indicative of broader social ills. For example the number of blue collar jobs has greatly diminished just in a single lifetime [4]. Could that be responsible for the dramatic increase in Social Security Disability claims (yes)? [0]: https://www.cbpp.org/snap-combating-fraud-and-improving-program-integrity-without-weakening-success https://www.cbpp.org/snap-combating-fraud-and-improving-prog... [1]: https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45147.html https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45147.html [2]: https://www.justice.gov/coronavirus/media/1347156/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/coronavirus/media/1347156/dl?inline [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARES_Act#Relief_to_individuals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARES_Act#Relief_to_individual... [4]: https://cepr.net/publications/the-decline-of-blue-collar-jobs-in-graphs/ https://cepr.net/publications/the-decline-of-blue-collar-job...
- smeeger 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - camgunz 1y ago
    I literally googled "what do people buy with ebt" and got a list [0] with actual information that seems very reasonable. If you're gonna participate in the conversation, please do better than this. [0]: https://epicforamerica.org/social-programs/here-is-what-food-stamp-recipients-buy/ https://epicforamerica.org/social-programs/here-is-what-food...
    - wredcoll 1y ago
      The grandparent is hidden but your link has the following as the thesis statement: > As a result, data show that sizable portions of SNAP dollars purchase nonnutritious foods, such as sugary beverages and ultra-processed foods, which can lead to poor health.” Correct me if I'm wrong, but "sugary beverages" and "processed foods" are, in fact, food? Items which contain calories that are vital to sustaining life? And food stamps are intended to buy food with? I'm not sure what point this link is trying to make.
      - smeeger 1y ago
        the point is that people who are hungry dont buy a soda… they buy a weeks worth of beans for the same price.
  - tomhow 1y ago
    Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hgomersall 1y ago

by gred 1y ago

camgunz 1y ago

This is exactly why I stake out such a strong position, so that positions like this poke their heads up. Individuals getting benefits when they're ineligible accounts for tiny amounts of the total fraud in these programs. Time after time we discover at least one of two things: - The effort/cost required to reduce fraud usually overshadows the cost of the fraud itself and also dramatically reduces the benefits of the program. There were 640,000 SNAP fraud investigations in 2014 [0]. If they cost $1,000 each that's $640m, and I bet they cost more! - The vast majority of fraud is either criminal, retailer, or both [1] The "moral hazard" angle of these programs is wildly overplayed. You don't hear anything about: - criminal trafficking - retailer fraud - program benefits There's political reasons for this, but it doesn't matter. Our brainrot on social programs is intense. > https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/covid-19-fraud-enforcement-task-force-releases-2024-report https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/covid-19-fraud-enfor... Looking at the fact sheet linked from that release [2], that stat that jumps out to me is 3,500 individuals charged totaling $1.4b in stolen CARES Act funds (this isn't a direct stat, but the numbers only get worse if we presume even more money from this and other programs was stolen), which is $400k/individual charged. It doesn't really seem possible for a person or household to have bilked the government for $400k under the individual benefits of the CARES Act [3]. We're looking at white collar fraud here, again a thing you never hear anything about. Finally, we should view some levels of fraud as indicative of broader social ills. For example the number of blue collar jobs has greatly diminished just in a single lifetime [4]. Could that be responsible for the dramatic increase in Social Security Disability claims (yes)? [0]: https://www.cbpp.org/snap-combating-fraud-and-improving-program-integrity-without-weakening-success https://www.cbpp.org/snap-combating-fraud-and-improving-prog... [1]: https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45147.html https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R45147.html [2]: https://www.justice.gov/coronavirus/media/1347156/dl?inline https://www.justice.gov/coronavirus/media/1347156/dl?inline [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARES_Act#Relief_to_individuals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARES_Act#Relief_to_individual... [4]: https://cepr.net/publications/the-decline-of-blue-collar-jobs-in-graphs/ https://cepr.net/publications/the-decline-of-blue-collar-job...

smeeger 1y ago
[flagged]
- camgunz 1y ago
  I literally googled "what do people buy with ebt" and got a list [0] with actual information that seems very reasonable. If you're gonna participate in the conversation, please do better than this. [0]: https://epicforamerica.org/social-programs/here-is-what-food-stamp-recipients-buy/ https://epicforamerica.org/social-programs/here-is-what-food...
  - wredcoll 1y ago
    The grandparent is hidden but your link has the following as the thesis statement: > As a result, data show that sizable portions of SNAP dollars purchase nonnutritious foods, such as sugary beverages and ultra-processed foods, which can lead to poor health.” Correct me if I'm wrong, but "sugary beverages" and "processed foods" are, in fact, food? Items which contain calories that are vital to sustaining life? And food stamps are intended to buy food with? I'm not sure what point this link is trying to make.
    - smeeger 1y ago
      the point is that people who are hungry dont buy a soda… they buy a weeks worth of beans for the same price.
- tomhow 1y ago
  Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
hgomersall 1y ago