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"it is a total moral bankruptcy for a society to have their children starve for their parents dysfunction." Sounds like child services should take those childr

"it is a total moral bankruptcy for a society to have their children starve for their parents dysfunction." Sounds like child services should take those children then? If they can't apply for the lunches, then surely they aren't getting food at home, nor the proper medical care.

anttihaapala 2y ago
Yes, and while waiting for the child services to intervene then those children would still be starving.
- giantg2 2y ago
  I think you underestimate how quickly they can get involved (not always a good thing).
vineyardmike 2y ago
> Sounds like child services should take those children then? This is a HUGE, dangerous leap. > If they can't apply for the lunches, then surely they aren't getting food at home, nor the proper medical care. Plenty of parents (and plenty of people generally) just aren't aware of social services but are quite aware that they're supposed to feed and care for their children. Plenty more forget to fill out paperwork and return phone calls. Many states' governments actively make applying for welfare and support difficult or inconvenient - plenty of parents can't take the time to return paperwork in person, make phone calls during the workday, etc. Needing support - either welfare or just kindness and assistance - is not a moral failure and not a sign of a bad parent. Beyond that, CPS wouldn't necessarily provide a great life for the child. There is a lot of difference between an imperfect parent and a danger to a child. Oh, and of course, CPS is a lot more expensive to run than a few meals. Giving out free meals at school is a lot easier if we want kids to be fed. As an anecdote, I was laid off from my job once, and someone asked me if I applied for unemployment within my state. I didn't know it existed, nor that I was eligible until months later when a barista told me during small talk. The whole time I managed to remember to feed myself (and my family). I sure hope no internet commenter would look at that and decide to take my children away!
- giantg2 2y ago
  "This is a HUGE, dangerous leap." If you're telling me they are "starving" then it isn't.
  - Supermancho 2y ago
    My wife was one of these kids. She knew then (and I know now) how and why she tried desperately to get into a state program and away from her drug addict parents. Living in the desert, in a broken trailer, 2 adults and 2 children, only a water tank (reuse that bath water), miles of flat hard (or wet slick) brown dirt in 120 degree heat in every direction. No money, no radio, sometimes TV rabbit ears. Begging for food from grocery store clerks as her parents bought beer and toilet paper inside, drugs outside. She grew up thinking they were derelict because of the drugs. As they got older and had to quit the drugs or die, she found they were just unfit people. Lots of people in the world are unfit to care for the children, but the children often persevere and society absorbs the damaged alongside the deaths. This colors my views of the world, as much as anything I experienced.
  - thr0waway39290 2y ago
    It's disappointing that there is such an automatic response to cover up for the parents who starve their children that people automatically dismissed your argument. I have a problem with government stepping in to remove children from their parents but parents should definitely be blamed for their own child starving. I think all empathy should go to the child who is starving and significantly less to the parent who caused it (even if they are starving too, they are an adult and they have significantly more choices then a starving child)
    - gopher_space 2y ago
      It's a reductive one-liner from someone obviously unfamiliar with and disinterested in the problem space, and it's the kind of statement people familiar with and interested in the problem space hear so frequently that it sounds intentionally ignorant. When you're reasoning outside of your own domain it's easy to get stuck in a "yeah, but why male models?" loop unless you listen to feedback.
jagger27 2y ago
Lose your job, lose your children. Great policy ideas from the thoughtful HN crowd, as always.
- giantg2 2y ago
  That's not a real argument. There are plenty of assistance programs, including free school lunches.
  - kerkeslager 2y ago
    How many assistance programs have you applied for? Frankly, if you haven't applied for any, your opinion is uninformed. Even people who are told how difficult it is, underestimate how difficult it is to apply for many programs. I've helped a bunch of homeless folks apply to assistance programs (not for school lunches, but for a lot of other aid) and almost universally, applying for aid is extremely difficult. I've walked at least 30 people through the process of applying for housing aid and I'm pretty sure exactly none of them have actually received aid. The only program's I've seen people actually successfully apply for were medicaid and SNAP. It is the norm for it to take over a month to receive medicaid, and it's the norm for it to take over 6 months to receive SNAP. Meanwhile people are dying of medical conditions and starving. Now add in all the reasons people are in this position in the first place--these people are struggling. It's hard to apply for these programs, and it's harder when everything else in your life is going poorly as well. And after all that, you might discover that you don't qualify even though you clearly have need. In the OP the author notes that many families with lunch debt were right above the income line for receiving aid. Some political forces are concerned that people will take advantage of these programs who shouldn't, and others simply don't want these programs to work so that they can have an excuse to cut them, and as a result there are numerous hurdles set up before you can obtain any sort of aid.
    - freehorse 2y ago
      That's also in the heart of the issue, having arbitrary thresholds and obscure bureaucracy here makes it easier also to restrict or even close down such a subsidised program, which can be harder when a permanent program of free school lunches has been established.
freehorse 2y ago
The world is not black or white, there are many reasons that parents may not apply for that, and deciding how child services should intervene in each case is much harder and time consuming problem than just providing free lunch to kids. It makes no sense to not solve the easy problem first.
- giantg2 2y ago
  Except that's a false solution. That does nothing to fix the neglect at home, especially over weekends and summers.
  - framapotari 2y ago
    "Sorry Timmy, I know you're hungry but giving you a school lunch portion would actually be a false solution. It would do nothing to fix the neglect you experience at home, especially over weekends and summers."
    - thr0waway39290 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - freehorse 2y ago
    The reasons that lead to these situations are extremely complex socially and they are not the same for every family, region, population group etc. It is not (just) about isolated families with shitty parents. I am not saying that there should be no child service intervening etc (which also should not always be just about taking children away), but that thinking that there is a fast, easy solution ignores the complexity. If child services intervene, it is often hard to actually change living situations. Taking children away is not always better for children, and often there is no good system in place for taking care of them, to put it mildly. There is no way to just "take children away" at scale in a way that is not making the situation shitty for many of them, like how it worked for aboriginal people in australia and greenland, and in general there is an important specificity problem when such approaches scale (which also is highly affected by cultural, racial, socioeconomic and other biases). In the best case (hypothetical) scenario that there is actually good will by the state to solve these, it would still take years if not decades. So I don't see that as a good argument for not giving free school lunch to kids. Yes weekends and summer is a still problem in terms of food, I am not sure how it could be solved, but it is definitely not solved by not giving food the rest of the year too.
beart 2y ago
What do you propose to do with these children, once they have been taken away from their families?

anttihaapala 2y ago

Yes, and while waiting for the child services to intervene then those children would still be starving.

giantg2 2y ago
I think you underestimate how quickly they can get involved (not always a good thing).

vineyardmike 2y ago

> Sounds like child services should take those children then? This is a HUGE, dangerous leap. > If they can't apply for the lunches, then surely they aren't getting food at home, nor the proper medical care. Plenty of parents (and plenty of people generally) just aren't aware of social services but are quite aware that they're supposed to feed and care for their children. Plenty more forget to fill out paperwork and return phone calls. Many states' governments actively make applying for welfare and support difficult or inconvenient - plenty of parents can't take the time to return paperwork in person, make phone calls during the workday, etc. Needing support - either welfare or just kindness and assistance - is not a moral failure and not a sign of a bad parent. Beyond that, CPS wouldn't necessarily provide a great life for the child. There is a lot of difference between an imperfect parent and a danger to a child. Oh, and of course, CPS is a lot more expensive to run than a few meals. Giving out free meals at school is a lot easier if we want kids to be fed. As an anecdote, I was laid off from my job once, and someone asked me if I applied for unemployment within my state. I didn't know it existed, nor that I was eligible until months later when a barista told me during small talk. The whole time I managed to remember to feed myself (and my family). I sure hope no internet commenter would look at that and decide to take my children away!

giantg2 2y ago
"This is a HUGE, dangerous leap." If you're telling me they are "starving" then it isn't.
- Supermancho 2y ago
  My wife was one of these kids. She knew then (and I know now) how and why she tried desperately to get into a state program and away from her drug addict parents. Living in the desert, in a broken trailer, 2 adults and 2 children, only a water tank (reuse that bath water), miles of flat hard (or wet slick) brown dirt in 120 degree heat in every direction. No money, no radio, sometimes TV rabbit ears. Begging for food from grocery store clerks as her parents bought beer and toilet paper inside, drugs outside. She grew up thinking they were derelict because of the drugs. As they got older and had to quit the drugs or die, she found they were just unfit people. Lots of people in the world are unfit to care for the children, but the children often persevere and society absorbs the damaged alongside the deaths. This colors my views of the world, as much as anything I experienced.
- thr0waway39290 2y ago
  It's disappointing that there is such an automatic response to cover up for the parents who starve their children that people automatically dismissed your argument. I have a problem with government stepping in to remove children from their parents but parents should definitely be blamed for their own child starving. I think all empathy should go to the child who is starving and significantly less to the parent who caused it (even if they are starving too, they are an adult and they have significantly more choices then a starving child)
  - gopher_space 2y ago
    It's a reductive one-liner from someone obviously unfamiliar with and disinterested in the problem space, and it's the kind of statement people familiar with and interested in the problem space hear so frequently that it sounds intentionally ignorant. When you're reasoning outside of your own domain it's easy to get stuck in a "yeah, but why male models?" loop unless you listen to feedback.

jagger27 2y ago

Lose your job, lose your children. Great policy ideas from the thoughtful HN crowd, as always.

giantg2 2y ago
That's not a real argument. There are plenty of assistance programs, including free school lunches.
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  How many assistance programs have you applied for? Frankly, if you haven't applied for any, your opinion is uninformed. Even people who are told how difficult it is, underestimate how difficult it is to apply for many programs. I've helped a bunch of homeless folks apply to assistance programs (not for school lunches, but for a lot of other aid) and almost universally, applying for aid is extremely difficult. I've walked at least 30 people through the process of applying for housing aid and I'm pretty sure exactly none of them have actually received aid. The only program's I've seen people actually successfully apply for were medicaid and SNAP. It is the norm for it to take over a month to receive medicaid, and it's the norm for it to take over 6 months to receive SNAP. Meanwhile people are dying of medical conditions and starving. Now add in all the reasons people are in this position in the first place--these people are struggling. It's hard to apply for these programs, and it's harder when everything else in your life is going poorly as well. And after all that, you might discover that you don't qualify even though you clearly have need. In the OP the author notes that many families with lunch debt were right above the income line for receiving aid. Some political forces are concerned that people will take advantage of these programs who shouldn't, and others simply don't want these programs to work so that they can have an excuse to cut them, and as a result there are numerous hurdles set up before you can obtain any sort of aid.
  - freehorse 2y ago
    That's also in the heart of the issue, having arbitrary thresholds and obscure bureaucracy here makes it easier also to restrict or even close down such a subsidised program, which can be harder when a permanent program of free school lunches has been established.

freehorse 2y ago

The world is not black or white, there are many reasons that parents may not apply for that, and deciding how child services should intervene in each case is much harder and time consuming problem than just providing free lunch to kids. It makes no sense to not solve the easy problem first.

giantg2 2y ago
Except that's a false solution. That does nothing to fix the neglect at home, especially over weekends and summers.
- framapotari 2y ago
  "Sorry Timmy, I know you're hungry but giving you a school lunch portion would actually be a false solution. It would do nothing to fix the neglect you experience at home, especially over weekends and summers."
  - thr0waway39290 2y ago
    [flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- freehorse 2y ago
  The reasons that lead to these situations are extremely complex socially and they are not the same for every family, region, population group etc. It is not (just) about isolated families with shitty parents. I am not saying that there should be no child service intervening etc (which also should not always be just about taking children away), but that thinking that there is a fast, easy solution ignores the complexity. If child services intervene, it is often hard to actually change living situations. Taking children away is not always better for children, and often there is no good system in place for taking care of them, to put it mildly. There is no way to just "take children away" at scale in a way that is not making the situation shitty for many of them, like how it worked for aboriginal people in australia and greenland, and in general there is an important specificity problem when such approaches scale (which also is highly affected by cultural, racial, socioeconomic and other biases). In the best case (hypothetical) scenario that there is actually good will by the state to solve these, it would still take years if not decades. So I don't see that as a good argument for not giving free school lunch to kids. Yes weekends and summer is a still problem in terms of food, I am not sure how it could be solved, but it is definitely not solved by not giving food the rest of the year too.

beart 2y ago

What do you propose to do with these children, once they have been taken away from their families?