4 ms·

It's funny that universities will throw you out immediately for plagiarism (some will throw you out if you're aware of it but don't report it), but major public

It's funny that universities will throw you out immediately for plagiarism (some will throw you out if you're aware of it but don't report it), but major publications will do it (this isn't the same as scholastic plagiarism, but it's the journalistic equivalent) out in the open and shamelessly with no repercussions.

robocat 1y ago
> throw you out immediately for plagiarism Only by twisting the meaning of plagiarism to be defined as word-for-word. Universities intensively train students to accept plagiarism so long as the copy is sufficiently reworded (and hopefully referenced). That sick and pointless system is ironically being exposed by student usage of LLMs.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 1y ago
  It is indeed worthwhile to point out that universities care less about the actual idea of taking someone else’s work, but rather more about the idea of doing so without credit. In the charitable sense, this is what science is built on. In the less charitable sense, this is what science is built on
- TheCowboy 1y ago
  > (and hopefully referenced) If it's cited, it's usually by definition not plagiarism. Omitting the reference is passing the work off as your own, but providing that information is giving credit to where it is due.
  - jsmith45 1y ago
    That can vary. A fair number of institutions would consider an undergrad paper that consisted mostly of cited quotations, with only a small amount of original analysis and conclusion drawing to be a form of plagiarism, even while a similar paper that paraphrases many of the cited works might be more acceptable, especially if the paraphrasing was adding value, like standardizing equivalent terminology between the sources (ideally including footnotes about what each author originally called each concept). Other institutions do hold more of a view that plagiarism is not possible with credit, but they will then consider the first mentioned paper as some other form of academic violation. Even the narrow definition institutions don't view plagiarism purely as misrepresenting sources of ideas as yourself, or self-plagiarism would not be a thing. It ends up as something more like: passing off original ideas from another work as having originated in this current work.
- JohnKemeny 1y ago
  The main issue is that students don't have original ideas, at least not way into their master's project. This means that every single thing they write throughout their studies is some regurgitation of stuff they find elsewhere. To avoid having a reference after every single sentence, we need to allow them to pretend that some of the stuff they read is common knowledge, and can thus be passed on as such, without reference. But if someone else actually wrote the sentence, that would be plagiarism, hence writing it in your own words.
- _Algernon_ 1y ago
  Not sure what kind of university you went to but at mine it was always about ideas. If you get an idea from somewhere else, you had to cite the original work, no matter how much you rewrote it. It's not just direct quotes that need to be cited. That of course doesn't mean that every instance of plagiarism is actually detected but the principles are there.
  - robocat 1y ago
    Perhaps paraphrasing is specific to New Zealand? Students are very strongly encouraged here to rewrite everything into "their own words" and they are penalised if they don't (plagiarism detection software has been used for years to detect sentences that were not paraphrased by students). Auckland University https://learningessentials.auckland.ac.nz/writing-effectively/paraphrasing-summarising/ https://learningessentials.auckland.ac.nz/writing-effectivel... says: Direct quotes from other sources should only be used when absolutely necessary. It is best to paraphrase the quote or summarise the ideas when you use other people’s writing. Massey University https://owll.massey.ac.nz/referencing/paraphrasing-and-summarising.php https://owll.massey.ac.nz/referencing/paraphrasing-and-summa... says: in your assignment, you need to ensure that there is enough difference in form between the original [words] and your own summarised version. This may be achieved by simplifying the ideas, as well as using a different sentence structure or sentence order to present those ideas. Equivalent examples from all NZ universities: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aac.nz+paraphrase https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aac.nz+paraphrase Students are forced to do it here in NZ. I find it dishonest and pointless. Although generally I'm rather cynical about the value of university education here. Searching for "paraphrase" comes up with other suggestions which demonstrate that students are searching for tools to do it for them. That isn't a recent development with LLMs.
    - _Algernon_ 1y ago
      That's a different issue though and has little to do with plagiarism. Based on skimming those links it doesn't seem that they absolve the student from plagiarism just because they sufficiently reshuffled the words (though again, it makes it harder to detect).
jimbob45 1y ago
There’s really very little objectivity in the study of English writing. It would make sense that teachers would gravitate to the only real objective part of their discipline - citations - in a desperate attempt to be able to reliably test students. No surprise the profession has embraced citations to the point of absurdity. Granted, teaching soft skills is hard but English teachers seem to have universally given up trying at all.
- sandworm101 1y ago
  There used to be. There once was a host of rules one had to follow, from spelling to sentence structure. Students were tested on thier objective ability to recognize and correct grammar. That is now dead. Schools accept junk so long as it nails the citation format. Students are taught that they can rely on culture and common knowedge rather than bother with proper language.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    Testing grammar is objective but it's hardly any better. It's a waste of advanced education time.
- sapphicsnail 1y ago
  The whole point of the humanities is to deal with topics that are more subjective by nature. That's what makes them beautiful. It's a feature not a bug. If you want some objective facts about language study Linguistics.
aaron695 1y ago
[dead]
xyzal 1y ago
You don't pay for your news? Well, you get what you pay for.
- petesergeant 1y ago
  I pay for my news and one of the sources I pay is one of the sources she complains about

robocat 1y ago

> throw you out immediately for plagiarism Only by twisting the meaning of plagiarism to be defined as word-for-word. Universities intensively train students to accept plagiarism so long as the copy is sufficiently reworded (and hopefully referenced). That sick and pointless system is ironically being exposed by student usage of LLMs.

SOLAR_FIELDS 1y ago
It is indeed worthwhile to point out that universities care less about the actual idea of taking someone else’s work, but rather more about the idea of doing so without credit. In the charitable sense, this is what science is built on. In the less charitable sense, this is what science is built on
TheCowboy 1y ago
> (and hopefully referenced) If it's cited, it's usually by definition not plagiarism. Omitting the reference is passing the work off as your own, but providing that information is giving credit to where it is due.
- jsmith45 1y ago
  That can vary. A fair number of institutions would consider an undergrad paper that consisted mostly of cited quotations, with only a small amount of original analysis and conclusion drawing to be a form of plagiarism, even while a similar paper that paraphrases many of the cited works might be more acceptable, especially if the paraphrasing was adding value, like standardizing equivalent terminology between the sources (ideally including footnotes about what each author originally called each concept). Other institutions do hold more of a view that plagiarism is not possible with credit, but they will then consider the first mentioned paper as some other form of academic violation. Even the narrow definition institutions don't view plagiarism purely as misrepresenting sources of ideas as yourself, or self-plagiarism would not be a thing. It ends up as something more like: passing off original ideas from another work as having originated in this current work.
JohnKemeny 1y ago
The main issue is that students don't have original ideas, at least not way into their master's project. This means that every single thing they write throughout their studies is some regurgitation of stuff they find elsewhere. To avoid having a reference after every single sentence, we need to allow them to pretend that some of the stuff they read is common knowledge, and can thus be passed on as such, without reference. But if someone else actually wrote the sentence, that would be plagiarism, hence writing it in your own words.
_Algernon_ 1y ago
Not sure what kind of university you went to but at mine it was always about ideas. If you get an idea from somewhere else, you had to cite the original work, no matter how much you rewrote it. It's not just direct quotes that need to be cited. That of course doesn't mean that every instance of plagiarism is actually detected but the principles are there.
- robocat 1y ago
  Perhaps paraphrasing is specific to New Zealand? Students are very strongly encouraged here to rewrite everything into "their own words" and they are penalised if they don't (plagiarism detection software has been used for years to detect sentences that were not paraphrased by students). Auckland University https://learningessentials.auckland.ac.nz/writing-effectively/paraphrasing-summarising/ https://learningessentials.auckland.ac.nz/writing-effectivel... says: Direct quotes from other sources should only be used when absolutely necessary. It is best to paraphrase the quote or summarise the ideas when you use other people’s writing. Massey University https://owll.massey.ac.nz/referencing/paraphrasing-and-summarising.php https://owll.massey.ac.nz/referencing/paraphrasing-and-summa... says: in your assignment, you need to ensure that there is enough difference in form between the original [words] and your own summarised version. This may be achieved by simplifying the ideas, as well as using a different sentence structure or sentence order to present those ideas. Equivalent examples from all NZ universities: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aac.nz+paraphrase https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Aac.nz+paraphrase Students are forced to do it here in NZ. I find it dishonest and pointless. Although generally I'm rather cynical about the value of university education here. Searching for "paraphrase" comes up with other suggestions which demonstrate that students are searching for tools to do it for them. That isn't a recent development with LLMs.
  - _Algernon_ 1y ago
    That's a different issue though and has little to do with plagiarism. Based on skimming those links it doesn't seem that they absolve the student from plagiarism just because they sufficiently reshuffled the words (though again, it makes it harder to detect).

jimbob45 1y ago

There’s really very little objectivity in the study of English writing. It would make sense that teachers would gravitate to the only real objective part of their discipline - citations - in a desperate attempt to be able to reliably test students. No surprise the profession has embraced citations to the point of absurdity. Granted, teaching soft skills is hard but English teachers seem to have universally given up trying at all.

sandworm101 1y ago
There used to be. There once was a host of rules one had to follow, from spelling to sentence structure. Students were tested on thier objective ability to recognize and correct grammar. That is now dead. Schools accept junk so long as it nails the citation format. Students are taught that they can rely on culture and common knowedge rather than bother with proper language.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Testing grammar is objective but it's hardly any better. It's a waste of advanced education time.
sapphicsnail 1y ago
The whole point of the humanities is to deal with topics that are more subjective by nature. That's what makes them beautiful. It's a feature not a bug. If you want some objective facts about language study Linguistics.

aaron695 1y ago

[dead]

xyzal 1y ago

You don't pay for your news? Well, you get what you pay for.

petesergeant 1y ago
I pay for my news and one of the sources I pay is one of the sources she complains about