6 ms·

Part of the justification for tarriffs is that America is somehow being 'taken advantage' of by the rest of the world and the tarriffs are the rest of the world

Part of the justification for tarriffs is that America is somehow being 'taken advantage' of by the rest of the world and the tarriffs are the rest of the world finally paying their fair share. The reality is that (until now) America has had a uniquely privileged position in the world economy that got America, in general, very beneficial trade deals. He's commenting on the attitude driving the tariffs.

WalterBright 1y ago
Uniquely privileged position? The only unique thing about America is free markets. Any country can become highly successful by enacting free markets. The only thing in the way is their disbelief that they work. There's a common thread across the world and history. The more free market a country is, the more it prospers.
- pyth0 1y ago
  This is only true if you ignore the important material and historical factors that go into the success of a country. Like for example, the immense wealth of natural resources and variation in climates that the US has. Or how about escaping much of the devastation that Europe faced in WW2 and benefiting immensely from helping them rebuild. Or having (for the most part) incredibly safe and stable relationships with neighbors to the north and south. Free markets have certainly contributed to success, but to say it's the only unique thing about America is just wrong.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    The Sovied Union and Communist China all had vast natural resources. But a third world economy. Japan, S Korea and Hong Kong have next to no natural resources. Great prosperity. Germany turned to free markets after WW2 and enjoyed the "German Miracle". (Germany has since turned to socialism, with predictable results.) Germany received far, far less Marshall Plan money than Britain and France, who had no miracle. > but to say it's the only unique thing about America is just wrong History shows otherwise.
    - dehugger 1y ago
      Consider, for a moment, the state that China was in at the conclusion of WW2. It hadn't even industrialized yet. The British and the Japanese absolutely trashed China for over a hundred years! Russia was also not industrialized until after their revolution in ~1920, and suffered horrific losses in the homeland during WW2. The US emerged from WW2 fully industrialized and nearly unscathed. The US mainland remained untouched throughout both world wars. The starting positions were far from equal. You attribute too much to free markets.
      - pests 1y ago
        > The US mainland remained untouched throughout both world wars. Minus some balloons from the Japanese I believe?
        ethbr1 1y ago
        And the 8 Germans who landed at east Long Island, NY and Jacksonville, FL. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        China didn't industrialize until after 1978, when they gave up on communism and began a transition to capitalism. Over 30 years after WW2 concluded. Russia did not industrialize in the 1920s. They did collectivize agriculture, famine ensued. They turned back to free market farming, famine went away. They turned again to collectivization, and farming collapsed again. Eventually, the Soviets allowed farmers to farm small plots and sell what they could raise. These small free market plots kept the country from starving. Russia did work hard at industrializing during WW2, but it was propped up by the US, who heavily supplied the Soviets. The US actually built factories in the US, dismantled them, and shipped them to the Soviet Union during the war. US engineers and craftsmen taught them. When WW2 ended, the Soviets looted everything industrial they could find from the Soviet sector. Whole factories were moved east. Soviet industrial output grew during the war. British industry was also untouched, because the German bomber fleet did not have the range to cover much of Britain, and because Hitler stupidly decided to bomb houses instead of factories. Britain had a pretty anemic recovery from the war - despite getting far more Marshall Plan money than Germany. Japan did not have a free market before the war, and not much of an industrial economy. Curtis LeMay had a hard time finding industrial targets to bomb, as Japanese industry was characterized as "a drill press in every home". Japan turned to free markets after the war, and we know what happened next. Recall that Japan was burned into ash in WW2. They went from utter defeat to economic superpower, despite not having any natural resources, in just 30 years. How much more of an "unequal" starting point could there possibly be? The only common characteristic of prosperity is free markets. And the more free market an economy is, the more prosperous it is. Over and over. It goes back to the middle ages. The other common characteristic is when countries turn towards socialism, things just get worse and worse for them.
- terribleperson 1y ago
  I would say that the dollar being the global reserve currency is a unique privilege, yes.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    It's a result of American prosperity, not the cause.
    - terribleperson 1y ago
      Real life is rarely as simple as discrete causes and effects. The dollar being a reserve currency is the result of both advantaged position America was in at the end of WWII combined with subsequent economic policy. Economic policy alone would not have resulted in the powerhouse America became, and it certainly could have squandered its post-WWII position with bad policy. The dollar becoming the reserve currency has given America a lot of power, however. It certainly is a factor in the way America is able to run a trade deficit and yet still benefit.
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        > Economic policy alone would not have resulted in the powerhouse America became During WW2, the US was the most powerful economy in the world. It fought WW2 in both hemispheres (which required two navies), and supplied all the allies. Japan was well aware they could never win a sustained war with the US, and hoped that the attack on Pearl Harbor would get them a negotiated settlement. Hitler, in probably the stupidest miscalculation in history, declared war on the US.
    - TeaBrain 1y ago
      You are getting two things confused here. The original question was what privileges the US had that others do not. The USD being the reserve currency is unquestionably a privilege. That it is not the original cause of American prosperity is completely besides the point.
      - 1y ago
- TeaBrain 1y ago
  >The only unique thing about America is free markets This is less unique than the dollar being the dominant reserve currency and dominant currency for settling international trade.
  - Panzer04 1y ago
    And why do you think the dollar is dominant in international trade? You appear to be putting the cart before the horse.
    - TeaBrain 1y ago
      >And why do you think the dollar is dominant in international trade? The dollar isn't dominant in international trade because the domestic market is free, like the above user was referencing. The dollar has been the dominant reserve currency and currency for international trade since it overtook the pound for both of those functions in the mid 20th century, which didn't coincide with the US having a free market. Also, I wasn't make any causal relationship in my comment, like you seem to be implying. The fact that USD is the dominant reserve currency and dominant trade currency is unquestionably more unique than having free markets, considering that the US is truly completely unique in both of these regards, while it is not nearly as unique in having a free market.
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        The US was the most prosperous country in the world in the mid 20th century. It was also the free'est market in the world at the time.
        TeaBrain 1y ago
        Once again, regardless of how free the US market was in the mid-20th century, this is not the most unique privilege about the US today, as you put it in your previous comment. Any country could institute the same market regulations and degrees of freedom as the US, but only one country can have the position of having the dominant reserve currency and dominant trade currency.
- ajross 1y ago
  > Any country can become highly successful by enacting free markets. And the existence proof for that assertion is which country, exactly? Lots of nations lack regulation of some form or another, many of them are "freer" than the US. The US isn't entirely "free" of trade barriers either (c.f. tariffpocalype). Basically this sounds like a no-true-scotsman in the making. No, it's not that simple.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    The US is not a perfect free market. But it is closer than other countries. Socialism, on the other hand, makes things worse the closer one gets to "true" socialism.
    - mmooss 1y ago
      Worse for who? The US outcomes have been very good for the wealthy, especially the ultra-wealthy, but less good for other people than outcomes in many other wealthy countries.
      - WalterBright 1y ago
        During the 19th century, the US elevated scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class and beyond. The newly wealthy "aristocracy" sprang from the poor, much to the disdain of European royalty. Poverty in the US continued going down until 1968, when it began edging up again. 1968 was the advent of the "Great Society" programs.
        mmooss 1y ago
        The current wealth disparity, at historic levels, began growing mostly in the 1980s. > 1968 was the advent of the "Great Society" programs. 1968 was when Nixon was elected. > During the 19th century, the US elevated scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class and beyond. The newly wealthy "aristocracy" sprang from the poor I don't grasp the relevance of these 19th century events to today. How does it address the fact that today, for most of the population, US outcomes are worse than many peer countries? Who are you quoting with "aristocracy" and did they really come from poor people or from the middle class?
- yodsanklai 1y ago
  > The only unique thing about America is free markets Is that unique to America? I'm in EU, I thought we had free markets too. > The more free market a country is, the more it prospers. Some countries, including the US, reached prosperity by protecting their markets.
  - yupitsme123 1y ago
    They created one kind of prosperity early on by protecting their markets and letting industries develop. Many other countries have done the same thing. The unique thing was that they then created another, less broadly shared, kind of prosperity by eliminating those protections and offshoring those industries, and focusing instead on dollar diplomacy.
  - austhrow743 1y ago
    One of the biggest “services” expenses, i think maybe the biggest, comes in the form of employees. Afaik the EU is regulated much more heavily in that area than the US, like here in Australia. It makes sense to me that some amount of the US’ economic advantage comes from their ability to more efficiently match employees with the work currently demanded by the market.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > I'm in EU, I thought we had free markets too Significantly less free than in the US, and correspondingly less prosperity. > Some countries, including the US, reached prosperity by protecting their markets. Not true. If it was true, N Korea would be massively prosperous.
    - TeaBrain 1y ago
      >Significantly less free than in the US, and correspondingly less prosperity. Which measures of freedom became restricted in the EU following the GFC that led to the prosperity of the EU diverging from the US?
      - emtel 1y ago
- brookst 1y ago
  This is painfully naive. Simple, obvious contradiction: can every country enjoy the benefits of issuing the de facto reserve currency for the world? Just by having free markets? The US has been incredibly privileged. I’d argue that was earned in some ways and lucky in others. But it’s undeniably true.
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    > The US has been incredibly privileged. Free markets are a choice the US made. Any country can choose to have a free market, and some have. The reserve currency thing has nothing to do with it.
    - DavidPiper 1y ago
      Your position that the country controlling the de facto global reserve currency isn't in a privileged economic position is very hard to understand. What would you say is the economic impact on a country of controlling a global reserve currency?
      - southernplaces7 1y ago
        And pray tell, how did it become the de facto global trade currency? You believe the massive development of internal markets, free trade and relatively stable legal system that largely respects private property had little or nothing to do with this?
- akdor1154 1y ago
  > There's a common thread across the world and history. The more free market a country is, the more it prospers. As long as the trend of capitalist market+power consolidation is considered to be 'less free market', I think I'd agree with you. - Sincerely, an otherwise raging leftie
  - WalterBright 1y ago
    Just for fun, name the largest 10 US corporations in 1920, and how they came to consolidate power today.
- bloppe 1y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege Not sure is this is what OP meant, but it's a huge advantage that the current administration seems bent on getting rid of
- jjani 1y ago
  Besides the many factors (e.g. reserve currency) others have already mentioned, here's another one: Digital services not being taxed/tariffed when exported whereas physical goods are, is purely a historical artifact. The US has managed to get the whole world addicted to their doomscrolling dopamine algorithms, raking in trillions of dollars. If these were physical goods, this would've been entirely different. The heroine dealer of the world. So far they've been allowed this position, which is incredibly privileged. And now that the EU sometimes takes a (paltry) step towards slightly taxing the drugs, the dealer screams and kicks, "it's unfair! They're targeting just me!".
- tasuki 1y ago
  America was uniquely positioned due to the dollar being the world's most desired reserve currency. This enabled the USA to spend far beyond what it produced.
- mierz00 1y ago
  Free markets are the end state, not what is required to become successful. We can see this in countries that have prospered over the last century. Japan and South Korea both had huge land reforms effectively killing the landlord class and redistributing farms to families. They then forced businesses to export while maintaining high tariffs and once that was all in place they relaxed the tarifs and opened up the markets. Countries that took the free market approach include Indonesia and Cambodia.

WalterBright 1y ago

Uniquely privileged position? The only unique thing about America is free markets. Any country can become highly successful by enacting free markets. The only thing in the way is their disbelief that they work. There's a common thread across the world and history. The more free market a country is, the more it prospers.

pyth0 1y ago
This is only true if you ignore the important material and historical factors that go into the success of a country. Like for example, the immense wealth of natural resources and variation in climates that the US has. Or how about escaping much of the devastation that Europe faced in WW2 and benefiting immensely from helping them rebuild. Or having (for the most part) incredibly safe and stable relationships with neighbors to the north and south. Free markets have certainly contributed to success, but to say it's the only unique thing about America is just wrong.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  The Sovied Union and Communist China all had vast natural resources. But a third world economy. Japan, S Korea and Hong Kong have next to no natural resources. Great prosperity. Germany turned to free markets after WW2 and enjoyed the "German Miracle". (Germany has since turned to socialism, with predictable results.) Germany received far, far less Marshall Plan money than Britain and France, who had no miracle. > but to say it's the only unique thing about America is just wrong History shows otherwise.
  - dehugger 1y ago
    Consider, for a moment, the state that China was in at the conclusion of WW2. It hadn't even industrialized yet. The British and the Japanese absolutely trashed China for over a hundred years! Russia was also not industrialized until after their revolution in ~1920, and suffered horrific losses in the homeland during WW2. The US emerged from WW2 fully industrialized and nearly unscathed. The US mainland remained untouched throughout both world wars. The starting positions were far from equal. You attribute too much to free markets.
    - pests 1y ago
      > The US mainland remained untouched throughout both world wars. Minus some balloons from the Japanese I believe?
      - ethbr1 1y ago
        And the 8 Germans who landed at east Long Island, NY and Jacksonville, FL. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      China didn't industrialize until after 1978, when they gave up on communism and began a transition to capitalism. Over 30 years after WW2 concluded. Russia did not industrialize in the 1920s. They did collectivize agriculture, famine ensued. They turned back to free market farming, famine went away. They turned again to collectivization, and farming collapsed again. Eventually, the Soviets allowed farmers to farm small plots and sell what they could raise. These small free market plots kept the country from starving. Russia did work hard at industrializing during WW2, but it was propped up by the US, who heavily supplied the Soviets. The US actually built factories in the US, dismantled them, and shipped them to the Soviet Union during the war. US engineers and craftsmen taught them. When WW2 ended, the Soviets looted everything industrial they could find from the Soviet sector. Whole factories were moved east. Soviet industrial output grew during the war. British industry was also untouched, because the German bomber fleet did not have the range to cover much of Britain, and because Hitler stupidly decided to bomb houses instead of factories. Britain had a pretty anemic recovery from the war - despite getting far more Marshall Plan money than Germany. Japan did not have a free market before the war, and not much of an industrial economy. Curtis LeMay had a hard time finding industrial targets to bomb, as Japanese industry was characterized as "a drill press in every home". Japan turned to free markets after the war, and we know what happened next. Recall that Japan was burned into ash in WW2. They went from utter defeat to economic superpower, despite not having any natural resources, in just 30 years. How much more of an "unequal" starting point could there possibly be? The only common characteristic of prosperity is free markets. And the more free market an economy is, the more prosperous it is. Over and over. It goes back to the middle ages. The other common characteristic is when countries turn towards socialism, things just get worse and worse for them.
terribleperson 1y ago
I would say that the dollar being the global reserve currency is a unique privilege, yes.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  It's a result of American prosperity, not the cause.
  - terribleperson 1y ago
    Real life is rarely as simple as discrete causes and effects. The dollar being a reserve currency is the result of both advantaged position America was in at the end of WWII combined with subsequent economic policy. Economic policy alone would not have resulted in the powerhouse America became, and it certainly could have squandered its post-WWII position with bad policy. The dollar becoming the reserve currency has given America a lot of power, however. It certainly is a factor in the way America is able to run a trade deficit and yet still benefit.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      > Economic policy alone would not have resulted in the powerhouse America became During WW2, the US was the most powerful economy in the world. It fought WW2 in both hemispheres (which required two navies), and supplied all the allies. Japan was well aware they could never win a sustained war with the US, and hoped that the attack on Pearl Harbor would get them a negotiated settlement. Hitler, in probably the stupidest miscalculation in history, declared war on the US.
  - TeaBrain 1y ago
    You are getting two things confused here. The original question was what privileges the US had that others do not. The USD being the reserve currency is unquestionably a privilege. That it is not the original cause of American prosperity is completely besides the point.
    - 1y ago
TeaBrain 1y ago
>The only unique thing about America is free markets This is less unique than the dollar being the dominant reserve currency and dominant currency for settling international trade.
- Panzer04 1y ago
  And why do you think the dollar is dominant in international trade? You appear to be putting the cart before the horse.
  - TeaBrain 1y ago
    >And why do you think the dollar is dominant in international trade? The dollar isn't dominant in international trade because the domestic market is free, like the above user was referencing. The dollar has been the dominant reserve currency and currency for international trade since it overtook the pound for both of those functions in the mid 20th century, which didn't coincide with the US having a free market. Also, I wasn't make any causal relationship in my comment, like you seem to be implying. The fact that USD is the dominant reserve currency and dominant trade currency is unquestionably more unique than having free markets, considering that the US is truly completely unique in both of these regards, while it is not nearly as unique in having a free market.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      The US was the most prosperous country in the world in the mid 20th century. It was also the free'est market in the world at the time.
      - TeaBrain 1y ago
        Once again, regardless of how free the US market was in the mid-20th century, this is not the most unique privilege about the US today, as you put it in your previous comment. Any country could institute the same market regulations and degrees of freedom as the US, but only one country can have the position of having the dominant reserve currency and dominant trade currency.
ajross 1y ago
> Any country can become highly successful by enacting free markets. And the existence proof for that assertion is which country, exactly? Lots of nations lack regulation of some form or another, many of them are "freer" than the US. The US isn't entirely "free" of trade barriers either (c.f. tariffpocalype). Basically this sounds like a no-true-scotsman in the making. No, it's not that simple.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  The US is not a perfect free market. But it is closer than other countries. Socialism, on the other hand, makes things worse the closer one gets to "true" socialism.
  - mmooss 1y ago
    Worse for who? The US outcomes have been very good for the wealthy, especially the ultra-wealthy, but less good for other people than outcomes in many other wealthy countries.
    - WalterBright 1y ago
      During the 19th century, the US elevated scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class and beyond. The newly wealthy "aristocracy" sprang from the poor, much to the disdain of European royalty. Poverty in the US continued going down until 1968, when it began edging up again. 1968 was the advent of the "Great Society" programs.
      - mmooss 1y ago
        The current wealth disparity, at historic levels, began growing mostly in the 1980s. > 1968 was the advent of the "Great Society" programs. 1968 was when Nixon was elected. > During the 19th century, the US elevated scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class and beyond. The newly wealthy "aristocracy" sprang from the poor I don't grasp the relevance of these 19th century events to today. How does it address the fact that today, for most of the population, US outcomes are worse than many peer countries? Who are you quoting with "aristocracy" and did they really come from poor people or from the middle class?
yodsanklai 1y ago
> The only unique thing about America is free markets Is that unique to America? I'm in EU, I thought we had free markets too. > The more free market a country is, the more it prospers. Some countries, including the US, reached prosperity by protecting their markets.
- yupitsme123 1y ago
  They created one kind of prosperity early on by protecting their markets and letting industries develop. Many other countries have done the same thing. The unique thing was that they then created another, less broadly shared, kind of prosperity by eliminating those protections and offshoring those industries, and focusing instead on dollar diplomacy.
- austhrow743 1y ago
  One of the biggest “services” expenses, i think maybe the biggest, comes in the form of employees. Afaik the EU is regulated much more heavily in that area than the US, like here in Australia. It makes sense to me that some amount of the US’ economic advantage comes from their ability to more efficiently match employees with the work currently demanded by the market.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > I'm in EU, I thought we had free markets too Significantly less free than in the US, and correspondingly less prosperity. > Some countries, including the US, reached prosperity by protecting their markets. Not true. If it was true, N Korea would be massively prosperous.
  - TeaBrain 1y ago
    >Significantly less free than in the US, and correspondingly less prosperity. Which measures of freedom became restricted in the EU following the GFC that led to the prosperity of the EU diverging from the US?
    - emtel 1y ago
brookst 1y ago
This is painfully naive. Simple, obvious contradiction: can every country enjoy the benefits of issuing the de facto reserve currency for the world? Just by having free markets? The US has been incredibly privileged. I’d argue that was earned in some ways and lucky in others. But it’s undeniably true.
- WalterBright 1y ago
  > The US has been incredibly privileged. Free markets are a choice the US made. Any country can choose to have a free market, and some have. The reserve currency thing has nothing to do with it.
  - DavidPiper 1y ago
    Your position that the country controlling the de facto global reserve currency isn't in a privileged economic position is very hard to understand. What would you say is the economic impact on a country of controlling a global reserve currency?
    - southernplaces7 1y ago
      And pray tell, how did it become the de facto global trade currency? You believe the massive development of internal markets, free trade and relatively stable legal system that largely respects private property had little or nothing to do with this?
akdor1154 1y ago
> There's a common thread across the world and history. The more free market a country is, the more it prospers. As long as the trend of capitalist market+power consolidation is considered to be 'less free market', I think I'd agree with you. - Sincerely, an otherwise raging leftie
- WalterBright 1y ago
  Just for fun, name the largest 10 US corporations in 1920, and how they came to consolidate power today.
bloppe 1y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege Not sure is this is what OP meant, but it's a huge advantage that the current administration seems bent on getting rid of
jjani 1y ago
Besides the many factors (e.g. reserve currency) others have already mentioned, here's another one: Digital services not being taxed/tariffed when exported whereas physical goods are, is purely a historical artifact. The US has managed to get the whole world addicted to their doomscrolling dopamine algorithms, raking in trillions of dollars. If these were physical goods, this would've been entirely different. The heroine dealer of the world. So far they've been allowed this position, which is incredibly privileged. And now that the EU sometimes takes a (paltry) step towards slightly taxing the drugs, the dealer screams and kicks, "it's unfair! They're targeting just me!".
tasuki 1y ago
America was uniquely positioned due to the dollar being the world's most desired reserve currency. This enabled the USA to spend far beyond what it produced.
mierz00 1y ago
Free markets are the end state, not what is required to become successful. We can see this in countries that have prospered over the last century. Japan and South Korea both had huge land reforms effectively killing the landlord class and redistributing farms to families. They then forced businesses to export while maintaining high tariffs and once that was all in place they relaxed the tarifs and opened up the markets. Countries that took the free market approach include Indonesia and Cambodia.