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I can just imagine a Kafkaesque future society where people are punished based on a predictive model that is nothing more than an overly complicated random numb

by foxyv 1y ago

I can just imagine a Kafkaesque future society where people are punished based on a predictive model that is nothing more than an overly complicated random number generator.

ashoeafoot 1y ago
Claude said i should downvote, you see it has a inner model, a state of vengeful spite.
giraffe_lady 1y ago
This is already pretty much a thing with pretrial risk assessment algorithms. Sure pretrial detention isn't "punishment" in a narrow legal-technical sense. But for the person in jail the difference doesn't matter.
- foxyv 1y ago
  Have you seen the documentaries on that. It was BONKERS. They would show up every day to these people's homes and give them tickets for literally anything. That bush is too tall, or whatever. Then they would threaten family members and stalk/harass them. John Lang did a little video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfD_2fVqEMk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfD_2fVqEMk
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    The real tragedy is that such systems can exist under the cover of political will provided by the "well if they didn't want to get fined they should have complied with <arcane rule that nobody ever expected full compliance with and was only ever intended for selective enforcement>.
archerx 1y ago
Infidelity Report. You will be caught before you cheat!
imtringued 1y ago
That's exactly what Gattaca is about. The fact that the machine scans your genes is honestly quite irrelevant and probably the biggest thing that everyone gets wrong about that movie: Everyone blindly trusts the scanner, but such a scanner cannot possibly exist. gwern summarizes it appropriately: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867898
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > gwern summarizes it appropriately The key claims about the film that gwern's argument builds on are false, though. E.g.: "in a setting where there are no genuine consequences to any of this, no genetic engineering, no embryo selection" It is a rather central part of the story that genetic engineering and embryo selection are routine, and the principal protagonist is noteworthy because his parents did not use such techniques, and he was instead a "faith baby". gwern is clearly criticizing something, but it's not what is actually portrayed in the film Gattaca.
  - gwern 1y ago
    My point is that there are no 'genuine consequences'. We are told that supposedly there is selection and that the predictive power is nearly perfect and everyone relies on solely genetics to do everything; and yet, we do not see a world which reflects such effects at all. This worldbuilding does not make sense from a scientific perspective. Instead, what we see is a world in which you have extremely cheap sequencing in a panopticon and a caste society based on seemingly-random arbitrary discrimination with no actual consequences to any supposed inferiority or superiority*, akin to the classification of supposedly-objective 'classes' in North Korea where everyone is finely graded on hereditary loyalty to the elites but could be knocked down a rung at any time for suspected disloyalty. (My headcanon is that the esoteric story of _Gattaca_ is that none of the supposed embryo selection or valid/invalid screens exist at all, any embryo selection is just ordinary IVF quality control for aneuploidy etc, there is only cheap universal sequencing developed by a totalitarian police state like the CCP (see: Zero COVID testing), and the classification exists to manufacture distinctions and divide families and punish/reward elite supporters; the Freemans were some lower 'wavering' class, grouped with religious minorities, as indicated by their dissenting 'natural' birth, and so they earned a valid vs invalid split within their family. It makes more sense than the actual story, anyway.) * I've remarked elsewhere that _Gattaca_ is an example of how movies with a message tend to fail by loading the dice too heavily for one side, removing any 'moral dilemma', and it is no exception: we never see any evidence that Vincent is doing anything wrong or that he shouldn't go on the space mission. In fact, given his methodical penetration, high competency, motivation, and extraordinary success at getting into the mission, he shows that he should be selected for his moxie and chutzpah. So what _Gattaca_ should have done was to make the ending Vincent suddenly clutching his heart from the shock, and fade to black.
netsharc 1y ago
The Company has never existed, and never will.

by foxyv 1y ago

I can just imagine a Kafkaesque future society where people are punished based on a predictive model that is nothing more than an overly complicated random number generator.

ashoeafoot 1y ago

Claude said i should downvote, you see it has a inner model, a state of vengeful spite.

giraffe_lady 1y ago

This is already pretty much a thing with pretrial risk assessment algorithms. Sure pretrial detention isn't "punishment" in a narrow legal-technical sense. But for the person in jail the difference doesn't matter.

foxyv 1y ago
Have you seen the documentaries on that. It was BONKERS. They would show up every day to these people's homes and give them tickets for literally anything. That bush is too tall, or whatever. Then they would threaten family members and stalk/harass them. John Lang did a little video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfD_2fVqEMk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfD_2fVqEMk
- potato3732842 1y ago
  The real tragedy is that such systems can exist under the cover of political will provided by the "well if they didn't want to get fined they should have complied with <arcane rule that nobody ever expected full compliance with and was only ever intended for selective enforcement>.

archerx 1y ago

Infidelity Report. You will be caught before you cheat!

imtringued 1y ago

That's exactly what Gattaca is about. The fact that the machine scans your genes is honestly quite irrelevant and probably the biggest thing that everyone gets wrong about that movie: Everyone blindly trusts the scanner, but such a scanner cannot possibly exist. gwern summarizes it appropriately: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867898 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14867898

dragonwriter 1y ago
> gwern summarizes it appropriately The key claims about the film that gwern's argument builds on are false, though. E.g.: "in a setting where there are no genuine consequences to any of this, no genetic engineering, no embryo selection" It is a rather central part of the story that genetic engineering and embryo selection are routine, and the principal protagonist is noteworthy because his parents did not use such techniques, and he was instead a "faith baby". gwern is clearly criticizing something, but it's not what is actually portrayed in the film Gattaca.
- gwern 1y ago
  My point is that there are no 'genuine consequences'. We are told that supposedly there is selection and that the predictive power is nearly perfect and everyone relies on solely genetics to do everything; and yet, we do not see a world which reflects such effects at all. This worldbuilding does not make sense from a scientific perspective. Instead, what we see is a world in which you have extremely cheap sequencing in a panopticon and a caste society based on seemingly-random arbitrary discrimination with no actual consequences to any supposed inferiority or superiority*, akin to the classification of supposedly-objective 'classes' in North Korea where everyone is finely graded on hereditary loyalty to the elites but could be knocked down a rung at any time for suspected disloyalty. (My headcanon is that the esoteric story of _Gattaca_ is that none of the supposed embryo selection or valid/invalid screens exist at all, any embryo selection is just ordinary IVF quality control for aneuploidy etc, there is only cheap universal sequencing developed by a totalitarian police state like the CCP (see: Zero COVID testing), and the classification exists to manufacture distinctions and divide families and punish/reward elite supporters; the Freemans were some lower 'wavering' class, grouped with religious minorities, as indicated by their dissenting 'natural' birth, and so they earned a valid vs invalid split within their family. It makes more sense than the actual story, anyway.) * I've remarked elsewhere that _Gattaca_ is an example of how movies with a message tend to fail by loading the dice too heavily for one side, removing any 'moral dilemma', and it is no exception: we never see any evidence that Vincent is doing anything wrong or that he shouldn't go on the space mission. In fact, given his methodical penetration, high competency, motivation, and extraordinary success at getting into the mission, he shows that he should be selected for his moxie and chutzpah. So what _Gattaca_ should have done was to make the ending Vincent suddenly clutching his heart from the shock, and fade to black.

netsharc 1y ago

The Company has never existed, and never will.