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All the while, I don't think I've ever loved our country as much as now because I think this is a time where our system of checks and balances can come to shine

All the while, I don't think I've ever loved our country as much as now because I think this is a time where our system of checks and balances can come to shine. I do hope this experience will lead to people re-evaluating their love of FDR. You can like what he stood for, but he was an equal if not (much) greater abuser of the executive office.

mcpeepants 1y ago
> this is a time where our system of checks and balances can come to shine why do you think that, all things considered?
- laborcontract 1y ago
  Because we've seen federal courts unafraid to repudiate unilateral executive force. Why don't you think that, all things considered?
  - ziddoap 1y ago
    Hasn't Trump already ignored orders from the supreme court regarding Kilmar Abrego Garcia? "Judge scorches Trump admin for stonewalling in Abrego Garcia deportation case" is just one recent headline. From my outside perspective, your checks and balances do not appear to be working. If they do work, I can't help but wonder what is taking so long.
    - laborcontract 1y ago
      would you prefer what’s happening in brazil? there are cases where the president has made the lives of individuals miserable in every presidency we’ve lived through. Stating that this is a terrible fact of life and doesn’t justify the harms. what kind of powers do you envision the judiciary having to rectify these wrongs?
      - ziddoap 1y ago
        >would you prefer what’s happening in brazil? I prefer not to do what aboutism. >what kind of powers do you envision the judiciary having to rectify these wrongs? Isn't that supposed to be figured out already? What is "checks and balances" if they can just be ignored? Impeachment for ignoring supreme court orders would be one example.
        laborcontract 1y ago
        Obama dropped a bomb on a us citizen without giving him due process. How should this case be handled? Like i said, american presidents causing untold misery on some people is a tale as old as time. The point is to create a system that is, on balance, just.
        ziddoap 1y ago
        >Obama dropped a bomb on a us citizen without giving him due process >american presidents causing untold misery on some people is a tale as old as time This is continued whataboutism, which I'm simply not interested in participating in a conversation with. >The point is to create a system that is, on balance, just. Sure! Why not start now. I'll be eagerly watching, and hoping, that you guys figure it out.
        laborcontract 1y ago
        > This is continued whataboutism i think i’ve written enough to show that’s that last thing im trying to do.
        ziddoap 1y ago
        >i think i’ve written enough to show that’s that last thing im trying to do. I mean, that may be your intent, but so far you've brought up Brazil and Obama in a conversation about Trump ignoring the courts orders and said nothing about Trump ignoring the orders.
        1y ago
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    Every time the courts say Trump did something wrong, he seems to mostly ignore this and keep going, so how much does it really matter? Without strong enforcement of those checks they will stop being taken seriously.
    - giardini 1y ago
      Joining other US Presidents (FDR, Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, etc.) who did the same thing.
- Vegenoid 1y ago
  Well, it’s an opportunity for the system to prove that it can prevent even a president with a large support base from making America fascist. I gather from your comment that you are pessimistic, but regardless of likelihoods, this is the kind of situation where checks and balances could prevent some very bad things from happening. We shall see.
  - vel0city 1y ago
    People are being disappeared, snatched up without being charged with a crime and being held in for profit prisons indefinitely. US citizens are being deported without even due process. Congress is feckless about it. The courts ask for the executive to please stop, but the executive branch is continuing to do the illegal things they've been told to stop doing. Sure seems like these checks and balances are working out.
    - Vegenoid 1y ago
      They are currently failing, yes. We can only hope that people look at the rest of the world and history, see how much worse it can get, and find their resolve.
      - vel0city 1y ago
        I think the deadline for that self-reflection and resolve gathering was November 5th, 2024.
      - DonHopkins 1y ago
        [flagged]
  - rescripting 1y ago
    The time for checks and balances working to save us has passed. There are mask wearing black shirts disappearing American citizens. The courts have ruled that “no, this isn’t allowed” and these rulings are ignored. Congress is impotent, and has been for years. There are no more checks and balances to deploy that might help.
UncleMeat 1y ago
FDR's major lasting accomplishments that people praise him for were through legislation. Even things like the threat to pack the court would have happened through legislation. There are some highly visible examples of direct executive action that I hope everyone today sees as authoritarian (japanese internment being the really big one). But FDR's expansion of the executive is the opposite of what Trump is doing. Trump is acting in opposition to the legislation that directs the executive to have its finger in more pies.
- laborcontract 1y ago
  The internment of the Japanese cannot be brushed off. That was a gross violation of power that, if Trump were to do something similar, would tear this country apart. On top of that, one of the side effects of the internment is that it's sowed a deep distrust in the federal government and the Census that continues to harm representation to this day. They used Census data to round people up. It doesn't get much worse than that.
  - voakbasda 1y ago
    Well they kept them in the US that time around. We won’t be so lucky this time.
    - laborcontract 1y ago
      I’m hoping to shine some light on bad executive behavior, not to create a contrast that makes Trump look good relative to what FDR did. We agree here.
      - DonHopkins 1y ago
        [flagged]
  - UncleMeat 1y ago
    Of course. It is one of the most evil things the US government has ever done and was driven largely by the executive. I personally think that this is a big enough black mark on FDR's legacy that he shouldn't be held in such high regard by liberals. But is also undeniable that when liberals praise FDR they are talking about things like new deal legislation which ultimately originated from congress during his presidency, which makes the "well you guys like FDR so why do you hate Trump" argument just miss completely.
Eextra953 1y ago
I feel this way as well. It's a great test to see if the founding fathers got the constitution right and more importantly to see if the people are willing to assert their right to a democracy with the powers spelled out in our constitution.
- sofixa 1y ago
  The fact that you think mythological figures that enshrined slavery in the same document which describes how people are free could have gotten the constitution "right" is very telling. No, the US constitution is not right. It has tons of problems with it, and needs a significant update to clarify it and avoid a supreme court legislating by imagining what slaveowners a few centuries ago might have thought about a problem.
  - Eextra953 1y ago
    In my comment I was using the Constitution and the founding Fathers as symbols for democracy to contrast the current administration which is very anti-democratic. I understand that the constitution/founding fathers are very flawed - but to most people they still serve as symbols of the core principles of this country. As you've mentioned, if you scratch the surface the reality is very different. If you have better examples that aren't as flawed, I'd genuinely like to hear them.
mrguyorama 1y ago
>You can like what he stood for, but he was an equal if not (much) greater abuser of the executive office. Absolute horseshit. The majority of the New Deal was done through congress, with broad support of a SIGNIFICANT amount of the legislative body, which had just seen massive Democrat wins in the 1932 election specifically to do so. The American people gave his administration this power because Americans were tired of watching people die in ditches, watching their parents suffer through old age with zero support. 1 out of every 5 Americans were unemployed. That's a conservative estimate. They were tired of this being the case in a country with literal "Robber barons". There is absolutely no parallel to the current administration, who barely won election, who does not have such a commanding control of the legislative (though they do control it), and who personally appointed a significant quantity of the current supreme court. There is no vast economic harm that Trump was elected to fix. He is openly defying and ignoring court orders, which FDR did not do. You are spouting lies. Where did you ever get such an incorrect view of history?

mcpeepants 1y ago

> this is a time where our system of checks and balances can come to shine why do you think that, all things considered?

laborcontract 1y ago
Because we've seen federal courts unafraid to repudiate unilateral executive force. Why don't you think that, all things considered?
- ziddoap 1y ago
  Hasn't Trump already ignored orders from the supreme court regarding Kilmar Abrego Garcia? "Judge scorches Trump admin for stonewalling in Abrego Garcia deportation case" is just one recent headline. From my outside perspective, your checks and balances do not appear to be working. If they do work, I can't help but wonder what is taking so long.
  - laborcontract 1y ago
    would you prefer what’s happening in brazil? there are cases where the president has made the lives of individuals miserable in every presidency we’ve lived through. Stating that this is a terrible fact of life and doesn’t justify the harms. what kind of powers do you envision the judiciary having to rectify these wrongs?
    - ziddoap 1y ago
      >would you prefer what’s happening in brazil? I prefer not to do what aboutism. >what kind of powers do you envision the judiciary having to rectify these wrongs? Isn't that supposed to be figured out already? What is "checks and balances" if they can just be ignored? Impeachment for ignoring supreme court orders would be one example.
      - laborcontract 1y ago
        Obama dropped a bomb on a us citizen without giving him due process. How should this case be handled? Like i said, american presidents causing untold misery on some people is a tale as old as time. The point is to create a system that is, on balance, just.
        ziddoap 1y ago
        >Obama dropped a bomb on a us citizen without giving him due process >american presidents causing untold misery on some people is a tale as old as time This is continued whataboutism, which I'm simply not interested in participating in a conversation with. >The point is to create a system that is, on balance, just. Sure! Why not start now. I'll be eagerly watching, and hoping, that you guys figure it out.
        laborcontract 1y ago
        > This is continued whataboutism i think i’ve written enough to show that’s that last thing im trying to do.
        ziddoap 1y ago
        >i think i’ve written enough to show that’s that last thing im trying to do. I mean, that may be your intent, but so far you've brought up Brazil and Obama in a conversation about Trump ignoring the courts orders and said nothing about Trump ignoring the orders.
        1y ago
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Every time the courts say Trump did something wrong, he seems to mostly ignore this and keep going, so how much does it really matter? Without strong enforcement of those checks they will stop being taken seriously.
  - giardini 1y ago
    Joining other US Presidents (FDR, Lincoln, Andrew Jackson, etc.) who did the same thing.
Vegenoid 1y ago
Well, it’s an opportunity for the system to prove that it can prevent even a president with a large support base from making America fascist. I gather from your comment that you are pessimistic, but regardless of likelihoods, this is the kind of situation where checks and balances could prevent some very bad things from happening. We shall see.
- vel0city 1y ago
  People are being disappeared, snatched up without being charged with a crime and being held in for profit prisons indefinitely. US citizens are being deported without even due process. Congress is feckless about it. The courts ask for the executive to please stop, but the executive branch is continuing to do the illegal things they've been told to stop doing. Sure seems like these checks and balances are working out.
  - Vegenoid 1y ago
    They are currently failing, yes. We can only hope that people look at the rest of the world and history, see how much worse it can get, and find their resolve.
    - vel0city 1y ago
      I think the deadline for that self-reflection and resolve gathering was November 5th, 2024.
    - DonHopkins 1y ago
      [flagged]
- rescripting 1y ago
  The time for checks and balances working to save us has passed. There are mask wearing black shirts disappearing American citizens. The courts have ruled that “no, this isn’t allowed” and these rulings are ignored. Congress is impotent, and has been for years. There are no more checks and balances to deploy that might help.

UncleMeat 1y ago

FDR's major lasting accomplishments that people praise him for were through legislation. Even things like the threat to pack the court would have happened through legislation. There are some highly visible examples of direct executive action that I hope everyone today sees as authoritarian (japanese internment being the really big one). But FDR's expansion of the executive is the opposite of what Trump is doing. Trump is acting in opposition to the legislation that directs the executive to have its finger in more pies.

laborcontract 1y ago
The internment of the Japanese cannot be brushed off. That was a gross violation of power that, if Trump were to do something similar, would tear this country apart. On top of that, one of the side effects of the internment is that it's sowed a deep distrust in the federal government and the Census that continues to harm representation to this day. They used Census data to round people up. It doesn't get much worse than that.
- voakbasda 1y ago
  Well they kept them in the US that time around. We won’t be so lucky this time.
  - laborcontract 1y ago
    I’m hoping to shine some light on bad executive behavior, not to create a contrast that makes Trump look good relative to what FDR did. We agree here.
    - DonHopkins 1y ago
      [flagged]
- UncleMeat 1y ago
  Of course. It is one of the most evil things the US government has ever done and was driven largely by the executive. I personally think that this is a big enough black mark on FDR's legacy that he shouldn't be held in such high regard by liberals. But is also undeniable that when liberals praise FDR they are talking about things like new deal legislation which ultimately originated from congress during his presidency, which makes the "well you guys like FDR so why do you hate Trump" argument just miss completely.

Eextra953 1y ago

I feel this way as well. It's a great test to see if the founding fathers got the constitution right and more importantly to see if the people are willing to assert their right to a democracy with the powers spelled out in our constitution.

sofixa 1y ago
The fact that you think mythological figures that enshrined slavery in the same document which describes how people are free could have gotten the constitution "right" is very telling. No, the US constitution is not right. It has tons of problems with it, and needs a significant update to clarify it and avoid a supreme court legislating by imagining what slaveowners a few centuries ago might have thought about a problem.
- Eextra953 1y ago
  In my comment I was using the Constitution and the founding Fathers as symbols for democracy to contrast the current administration which is very anti-democratic. I understand that the constitution/founding fathers are very flawed - but to most people they still serve as symbols of the core principles of this country. As you've mentioned, if you scratch the surface the reality is very different. If you have better examples that aren't as flawed, I'd genuinely like to hear them.

mrguyorama 1y ago

>You can like what he stood for, but he was an equal if not (much) greater abuser of the executive office. Absolute horseshit. The majority of the New Deal was done through congress, with broad support of a SIGNIFICANT amount of the legislative body, which had just seen massive Democrat wins in the 1932 election specifically to do so. The American people gave his administration this power because Americans were tired of watching people die in ditches, watching their parents suffer through old age with zero support. 1 out of every 5 Americans were unemployed. That's a conservative estimate. They were tired of this being the case in a country with literal "Robber barons". There is absolutely no parallel to the current administration, who barely won election, who does not have such a commanding control of the legislative (though they do control it), and who personally appointed a significant quantity of the current supreme court. There is no vast economic harm that Trump was elected to fix. He is openly defying and ignoring court orders, which FDR did not do. You are spouting lies. Where did you ever get such an incorrect view of history?