4 ms·

> In August 2018, in the last month of my three-month sabbatical, I arrived at the Hamta village in Himachal Pradesh. I rented a one-room cottage, and my careta

by RajT88 2y ago

> In August 2018, in the last month of my three-month sabbatical, I arrived at the Hamta village in Himachal Pradesh. I rented a one-room cottage, and my caretakers were Dolma Aunty and Kalzang Uncle, a couple well into their 70’s. I got to this part and realized: I've read this article before in some form. It's a really common trope to head out to some remote area of Asia and admire how happy people are. There's often a spiritual component to it. I will write the guy a bit of a pass, because he himself is (I think) Indian. But westerners have been doing stuff like this for ages and prattling on about it - it's kind of a cornerstone of Orientalism. This was actually a plot point in the recent White Lotus season. People rarely go to Appalachia to have these experiences, but you certainly can find people living simple happy lives there. (At least, if they do, nobody publishes those articles - it doesn't fit our preconceived notions of who gets to be enlightened, which is to say it has to be some place far away and people very different than your average Americans) Not to say there's no value in this article (there is), and it was a fun read at that.

VoodooJuJu 2y ago
[dead]
IanCal 2y ago
Rather reminds me of Pratchetts character Lu-Tze, who having seen so many travel to the monasteries to achieve enlightenment decides to travel to Ankh Morpork and learns many ancient wisdoms ('Is it not written "Oo, you are so sharp you'll cut yourself one of these days."?')
webdoodle 2y ago
The America's have the 'noble savage' trope to find enlightenment with. It became so blatantly co-opting anothers' religion that many Native American tribes still refuse to teach non-tribal members there spiritual practices.
FlyingSnake 2y ago
It’s a common trope among urban Indians. They’re enamoured by the simple and rustic living of the villages and think of them as noble savages. I grew up in rural India and I always recommend people to read Dr. Ambedkar’s rights on this subject.
- Labov 2y ago
  Dr. Ambedkar is somebody more people in the United States should know about. I was a briefly involved with the Triratna Buddhist Community and read some of Sangharakshita's writing, and he discusses Ambedkar. Real interesting stuff.
  - FlyingSnake 2y ago
    TBH Dr. Ambedkar’s Buddhism is very different from what the other traditions preach. It was an answer to the prevailing jātivada, but unfortunately it didn’t manage to make the dent he envisioned. I’ve grown up around Navayana and have many friends from Kagyu, Theravada and other traditions. (All this to say I know Bauddha Dharma intimately)
    - Labov 2y ago
      All part of the great warp and weft. It's a fascinating thing to learn about, how all these traditions intersect. Seattle, the city I live in, recently became the first to ban caste discrimination. I didn't think much of it at the time, but nowadays maybe there's something to be learned from jātivada, the many forms it comes in, and the response to it. Reading Leslie Feinberg right now, interesting working class perspective.
      - FlyingSnake 2y ago
        There’s a difference between casteism and jātivada which is not easy to explain in a short comment. Ambedkar’s “ Annihilation of Caste” and A.M. Hocart’s works provide interesting insight on it.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Hamta isn't even really rural. It's a bunch of homestays just outside of Manali, and is similar to Pahalgam. My family is from rural HP/JK/Ladakh, and a homestay like Hamta is not representative of rural HP/JK/LA/UK. > They’re enamoured by the simple and rustic living of the villages and think of them as noble savages I think it goes both ways. They either over-idealize it, or overly berate it. I feel it's also state dependent to a certain extent, with some states better at rural administrative capacity (eg. Kerala, HP, PB, JK) than others (eg. KA, TG, GJ). Something I've noticed is states that don't have a primary city tend to have slightly better rural administrative capacity, as it at least incentivizes small town or T3/4 economies to develop instead of being invested in a single mega city.
Labov 2y ago
Well, maybe there's something to it. I think it's great when East meets West. East should keep meeting West over and over and over. Maybe one day East will know West and vice versa. For what it's worth, I had something of a similar experience, but it was in a plywood shack on a desert island off the coast of California.
dogleash 2y ago
> But westerners have been doing stuff like this for ages and prattling on about it - it's kind of a cornerstone of Orientalism. This was actually a plot point in the recent White Lotus season. People rarely go to Appalachia to have these experiences, but you certainly can find people living simple happy lives there. I think you're moralizing over a pretty bland bit of psychology: people need to be shaken from their frame of reference to see different parts of the world. Even if they exist next door. For many Americans, Appalachia will be too close to home to force off the blinders. I've flown all over the US for work, and in every location found the same exact city. It's hard to take away someone's footing when they feel at home. OTOH, the preconditions that gave me many life broadening experiences within 100 miles of a single US city are not available to everyone. Assigning someone internal character traits so that their external practice of respectful travel can still be judged is cruel.
- jhickok 2y ago
  Agreed. I think beyond tourist voyeurism, there is something really maturing(?) about being inserted into a completely different culture where people seem to be content. I grew up in rural Wisconsin and even the micro-change of moving away for college in a place like St. Louis had very important implications for my worldview.
- carleverett 2y ago
  As someone from the US who's traveled all over the country for fun, I can assure you there are loads of delightfully unique places and rich communities that think and act quite differently from each other. But yes I could see how work travel only could make them feel like carbon copies - both from the mindset you'd be in and from the types of places you might only go for work.
  - RajT88 2y ago
    Places you go for work are mostly corporate parks in the suburbs. Of course they all feel the same. I had the same experience and that was why - rarely did I get to visit the big cities. I went to places which had Chili's and Target and Outback Steakhouse. On the odd times I visited DC or SF or Toronto - really amazing and different experiences.
harrall 2y ago
There’s also some self-selection here. If you go to another place and someone lets you stay with them, they are probably in a good place in life. You are selecting yourself to meet with happier people. You won’t be making as many friends with unhappy people.
ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago
I agree that this is a common trope but the rest of your comment reads like, "Hey westerners, go find your own rural people and stop appropriating mine". Also completing your logic loop, this guy is apparently stealing intellectual ideas from (mediocre) westerners.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
concerndc1tizen 2y ago
A simpler explanation is that Americans have succumbed to consumerism to such an extent that the absence of it feels enlightened. Of course the reality is just that the US has become the axis of evil, and perhaps always was, it just had the best PR. I think you're doing yourself a disservice by belitting Asian cultures and what insights they may have, that are apparently incomprehensible as more than a trope to Americans.
- monero-xmr 2y ago
  America is the best because citizens can do basically whatever they want all the time. The latest complaints are people took it too far (rampant drug use, camping on sidewalks, and shitting everywhere in San Francisco, etc.). But if you want to buy a rural cabin on a beautiful mountain, it’s available, and cheap. You don’t need to go to Asia to live like a hermit.
  - concerndc1tizen 2y ago
    > America Obviously America refers to the continent, so I'll use the shorthand country name "the US" instead. > is the best That may be true, but I do wonder if it was a lucky accident. What if the Irish famine hadn't happened? What if WW2 had been averted (but maybe the EU wouldn't exist...). > rural cabin That's nice, but what value is it if the forest burns down, the lake is polluted, the wild life is dead, and there's nothing left but neighboring land full of fracking wells? Glory to god.
    - monero-xmr 2y ago
      You just have no idea how incredibly enormous and empty the US is
      - concerndc1tizen 2y ago
        And yet, every viable plot of land is used for farming. Similarly, I would argue that you should not underestimate the harmful and wide-reaching effects of industry.
jhanschoo 1y ago
I think that as tropey as such a practice is, there's a fundamental valid reason to do trips of this sort. You want to meet people as culturally remote and distant from you as you think exist, that you are still theoretically comfortable with. Then you want to be assured or refuted directly through your direct senses on things that you think are fundamental to the human condition. From such an experience you gain confidence on what you think is important to life and living.

by RajT88 2y ago

VoodooJuJu 2y ago

[dead]

IanCal 2y ago

Rather reminds me of Pratchetts character Lu-Tze, who having seen so many travel to the monasteries to achieve enlightenment decides to travel to Ankh Morpork and learns many ancient wisdoms ('Is it not written "Oo, you are so sharp you'll cut yourself one of these days."?')

webdoodle 2y ago

The America's have the 'noble savage' trope to find enlightenment with. It became so blatantly co-opting anothers' religion that many Native American tribes still refuse to teach non-tribal members there spiritual practices.

FlyingSnake 2y ago

It’s a common trope among urban Indians. They’re enamoured by the simple and rustic living of the villages and think of them as noble savages. I grew up in rural India and I always recommend people to read Dr. Ambedkar’s rights on this subject.

Labov 2y ago
Dr. Ambedkar is somebody more people in the United States should know about. I was a briefly involved with the Triratna Buddhist Community and read some of Sangharakshita's writing, and he discusses Ambedkar. Real interesting stuff.
- FlyingSnake 2y ago
  TBH Dr. Ambedkar’s Buddhism is very different from what the other traditions preach. It was an answer to the prevailing jātivada, but unfortunately it didn’t manage to make the dent he envisioned. I’ve grown up around Navayana and have many friends from Kagyu, Theravada and other traditions. (All this to say I know Bauddha Dharma intimately)
  - Labov 2y ago
    All part of the great warp and weft. It's a fascinating thing to learn about, how all these traditions intersect. Seattle, the city I live in, recently became the first to ban caste discrimination. I didn't think much of it at the time, but nowadays maybe there's something to be learned from jātivada, the many forms it comes in, and the response to it. Reading Leslie Feinberg right now, interesting working class perspective.
    - FlyingSnake 2y ago
      There’s a difference between casteism and jātivada which is not easy to explain in a short comment. Ambedkar’s “ Annihilation of Caste” and A.M. Hocart’s works provide interesting insight on it.
alephnerd 2y ago
Hamta isn't even really rural. It's a bunch of homestays just outside of Manali, and is similar to Pahalgam. My family is from rural HP/JK/Ladakh, and a homestay like Hamta is not representative of rural HP/JK/LA/UK. > They’re enamoured by the simple and rustic living of the villages and think of them as noble savages I think it goes both ways. They either over-idealize it, or overly berate it. I feel it's also state dependent to a certain extent, with some states better at rural administrative capacity (eg. Kerala, HP, PB, JK) than others (eg. KA, TG, GJ). Something I've noticed is states that don't have a primary city tend to have slightly better rural administrative capacity, as it at least incentivizes small town or T3/4 economies to develop instead of being invested in a single mega city.

Labov 2y ago

Well, maybe there's something to it. I think it's great when East meets West. East should keep meeting West over and over and over. Maybe one day East will know West and vice versa. For what it's worth, I had something of a similar experience, but it was in a plywood shack on a desert island off the coast of California.

dogleash 2y ago

> But westerners have been doing stuff like this for ages and prattling on about it - it's kind of a cornerstone of Orientalism. This was actually a plot point in the recent White Lotus season. People rarely go to Appalachia to have these experiences, but you certainly can find people living simple happy lives there. I think you're moralizing over a pretty bland bit of psychology: people need to be shaken from their frame of reference to see different parts of the world. Even if they exist next door. For many Americans, Appalachia will be too close to home to force off the blinders. I've flown all over the US for work, and in every location found the same exact city. It's hard to take away someone's footing when they feel at home. OTOH, the preconditions that gave me many life broadening experiences within 100 miles of a single US city are not available to everyone. Assigning someone internal character traits so that their external practice of respectful travel can still be judged is cruel.

jhickok 2y ago
Agreed. I think beyond tourist voyeurism, there is something really maturing(?) about being inserted into a completely different culture where people seem to be content. I grew up in rural Wisconsin and even the micro-change of moving away for college in a place like St. Louis had very important implications for my worldview.
carleverett 2y ago
As someone from the US who's traveled all over the country for fun, I can assure you there are loads of delightfully unique places and rich communities that think and act quite differently from each other. But yes I could see how work travel only could make them feel like carbon copies - both from the mindset you'd be in and from the types of places you might only go for work.
- RajT88 2y ago
  Places you go for work are mostly corporate parks in the suburbs. Of course they all feel the same. I had the same experience and that was why - rarely did I get to visit the big cities. I went to places which had Chili's and Target and Outback Steakhouse. On the odd times I visited DC or SF or Toronto - really amazing and different experiences.

harrall 2y ago

There’s also some self-selection here. If you go to another place and someone lets you stay with them, they are probably in a good place in life. You are selecting yourself to meet with happier people. You won’t be making as many friends with unhappy people.

ahmeneeroe-v2 2y ago

I agree that this is a common trope but the rest of your comment reads like, "Hey westerners, go find your own rural people and stop appropriating mine". Also completing your logic loop, this guy is apparently stealing intellectual ideas from (mediocre) westerners.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

concerndc1tizen 2y ago

A simpler explanation is that Americans have succumbed to consumerism to such an extent that the absence of it feels enlightened. Of course the reality is just that the US has become the axis of evil, and perhaps always was, it just had the best PR. I think you're doing yourself a disservice by belitting Asian cultures and what insights they may have, that are apparently incomprehensible as more than a trope to Americans.

monero-xmr 2y ago
America is the best because citizens can do basically whatever they want all the time. The latest complaints are people took it too far (rampant drug use, camping on sidewalks, and shitting everywhere in San Francisco, etc.). But if you want to buy a rural cabin on a beautiful mountain, it’s available, and cheap. You don’t need to go to Asia to live like a hermit.
- concerndc1tizen 2y ago
  > America Obviously America refers to the continent, so I'll use the shorthand country name "the US" instead. > is the best That may be true, but I do wonder if it was a lucky accident. What if the Irish famine hadn't happened? What if WW2 had been averted (but maybe the EU wouldn't exist...). > rural cabin That's nice, but what value is it if the forest burns down, the lake is polluted, the wild life is dead, and there's nothing left but neighboring land full of fracking wells? Glory to god.
  - monero-xmr 2y ago
    You just have no idea how incredibly enormous and empty the US is
    - concerndc1tizen 2y ago
      And yet, every viable plot of land is used for farming. Similarly, I would argue that you should not underestimate the harmful and wide-reaching effects of industry.

jhanschoo 1y ago

I think that as tropey as such a practice is, there's a fundamental valid reason to do trips of this sort. You want to meet people as culturally remote and distant from you as you think exist, that you are still theoretically comfortable with. Then you want to be assured or refuted directly through your direct senses on things that you think are fundamental to the human condition. From such an experience you gain confidence on what you think is important to life and living.