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Questionable whether that will still be true in 4 years. At least China can still be expected to operate rationally.

graemep 1y ago
Really? A nice rational genocide or two? China is an expansionist dictatorship. It would be ridiculous to suggest it is more trustworthy than the US. The US is actually acting rationally IMO. People just look at headlines and do not dig into the reasons. You might not agree with the reasoning, but it is not irrational. For example the tariffs clearly follow from arguments made by Trump's appointees (such as Bessent and Marin) even before the election, and definitely before being appointed.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  Really? A nice rational genocide or two? Huh? So China dealing with an internal extremist Islam problem is a genocide? But the US funding/providing weapons to Israel in the Gaza war is not a genocide? China is an expansionist dictatorship. It would be ridiculous to suggest it is more trustworthy than the US. The US has bombed 29 countries since WW2. How many has China bombed? The US has installed dictators in foreign countries, influenced countless democratic elections. How many has China installed?
  - kubb 1y ago
    You’re getting downvoted, but the US foreign policy is more hawkish than China’s by any measure. Internally I’m inclined to believe that it can be hell on earth for minorities.
    - _Algernon_ 1y ago
      They are getting downvoted because they are arguing against a straw man. >But the US funding/providing weapons to Israel in the Gaza war is not a genocide? Nowhere did the comment they replied to claim that the war in Gaza isn't a genocide.
      - kubb 1y ago
        You’re right, but if you admit that, it’s hard to claim that China is more brutal than the US, and therefore less trustworthy.
      - aurareturn 1y ago
        Nowhere did the comment they replied to claim that the war in Gaza isn't a genocide. The author I responded to thinks China is worse in terms of genocides/killing people than the US. Therefore, the US is more "trustworthy". I gave examples countering that. The US has always dealt with Islam extremists with bombs and killings. China is doing it through education camps. No, the camps probably aren't pleasant. It's a hard problem that requires a hard solution. But to me, China's way seems way more humane. Viewed in another lens, perhaps China deserves a Nobel Peace prize for their camps instead of being labeled as a genocide.
- echoangle 1y ago
  By that viewpoint, everything is rational. If someone hears voices in their head that tell them to shoot up a school, there’s also some reasoning that may lead them to actually do it. That doesn’t mean it’s rational. Can you give an example of behavior you consider to be irrational?
  - graemep 1y ago
    No, saying a particular thing is rational is very different from claiming everything is rational. People will make the wildest claims about Trumps' polices, even people who should know better. A good example is Jeffrey Sachs saying Trump's policies should would fail an economics class - but one of the people devising Trump's economic polices got a PhD from Harvard while Sachs was a professor there!
- rfoo 1y ago
  You know, sometimes I really wonder, if Uyghurs aren't white, are US/EU still going to make stretch to call the human right abuse during China's version of "counter-terrorism war" in Xinjiang "genocide" or not.
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  > China is an expansionist dictatorship. It would be ridiculous to suggest it is more trustworthy than the US. China never threatened to annex portions of EU countries, unlike the US. If anything, China is definitely more reliable, as its only disputes with EU are on trade, not anything ideological or that threatens the integrity of each party.
  - master-lincoln 1y ago
    EU has issues with human rights violations regularly happening in China. China has even sanctioned European politicians voicing critique. Only recently some of those sanctions were lifted by China so they can negotiate trade agreements with the EU. China might be more reliable than the US right now, but ideologically they are further away from the EU than the US I think.
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      EU has issues with human rights violations regularly happening in China. China has even sanctioned European politicians voicing critique. Does China sanction France for its role in suppressing parts of Africa?[0] In the video comments, a lot of French citizens never even heard about it. That tells you that the French government is also hiding a ton of atrocities it's committing to its citizens, right? Why is the EU judging when they still violate human rights themselves? I think when Europeans criticize China for not having the same values as them, they should learn some history about how European powers tried to tear China apart and take advantage of it. Start with the photo of Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United States and the United Kingdom forces inside the Forbidden City.[1] Perhaps China not having the same values of European powers is a good thing in terms of overall peace? I would love to hear from EU citizens on why they should be the judge of all human moral values when their countries have arguably done more collectively to disturb the peace of others in the last 300 years than any country in Asia. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U [1]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/50adfa2ae4b0cc1d786569eb/81c893e3-4967-4d3b-8857-0f78f44a0724/20240619+1024px-Within_historic_grounds_of_the_Forbidden_City_in_Pekin%2C_China%2C_on_November_28_celebrated_the_victory_of_the_Allies.%2C_ca._-_NARA_-_532582.jpg https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/50adfa2ae4b0cc...
- _Algernon_ 1y ago
  The US is already unlawfully sending people to foreign prisons. The US has over decades worked with dictatorships where it benefited them. The US has repeatedly and systematically overthrown legitimate democratic governments in favor of dictatorships where it benefited them. The US is founded on genocide of native Americans. The US has time and time again invaded countries for their resources. The US is the only country that has used nuclear weapons in war (twice). Don't pretend that the US is some paragon of virtue. China talks big about Taiwan but actions speak louder than words. So far I see very little action from China and a lot from the US spanning a century of aggression.
  - lukan 1y ago
    "So far I see very little action from China" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo... I would argue with them getting stronger, they might get more active. Their fish trawlers behave pretty agressive worldwide. And they are part of their military.
    - _Algernon_ 1y ago
      Fair point but US still comes out on top: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_from_the_20th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_from_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...
  - computerthings 1y ago
    [dead]
- lkramer 1y ago
  China is definitely not a fun neighbour if you're The Philippines. One of the big problem with the US suddenly becoming so adversarial (whether rationally so or not) is that the choice for Europe may be to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, which in Europe's eyes could very well end up being China. China at least tend to behave consistently and predictably over a long term. The US radically changing behaviour every 4 years, and now even multiple times within a 100 day span, is just really really difficult to deal with. Not to mention making direct threats to European countries and generally working to oppose European interests.
- LYK-love 1y ago
  I happen to live in China right now and am using a VPN. I find your comments to be fundamentally incorrect. I live here more than 20 years and can't find any information about genocide, and I have a lot of (I suppose you are talking about) Xinjiang friends. Yes, there are extremists in Xinjiang with foreign funding. And The the government prepares extreme religious individuals for modern society. This process involves learning Chinese and learning basic skills to have a job. If people really died there, why we Chinese people don't know it? I mean I can literally drive to Xinjiang to check these information. If you don't believe my words and still think people are oppressed in Xinjiang or whatever place, please apply a Chinese visa and visit here. If your visit is short-term, then a visa is not even needed. Your narratives about China reflect self-projection. Western historical treatment of minorities doesn't mirror our approach. It's like saying Chinese people are too oppressed to afford bread or are forced to pick cotton—ignoring that bread isn't a Chinese staple and cotton-picking doesn't carry any other cultural meanings here. By the way, if I said capitalism makes Americans too poor to eat rice, wouldn't you find that ridiculous? I'm sure you would, because you guys generally don't eat rice. This projection is exactly what your views about China represent.
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    > I live here more than 20 years and can't find any information about genocide China’s persecution of the Uyghur people is considered by many to cross the line into genocide… https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-guilty-genocide-crimes-humanity-uyghurs-watchdog-finds-rcna8157 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-guilty-genocide-cri... https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/ch...
  - lukan 1y ago
    "Yes, there are extremists in Xinjiang with foreign funding." Radical islmaists are definitely a thing, but don't you think, the chinese government considers anyone extremist not ok with one party rule? (I don't expect a honest answer, since you need a vpn to communicate) And that you don't find information and that your chinese friends don't find know about controversal topic, then this is rather a obvious sign to me, that chinese censorship is working.
- immibis 1y ago
  Most genocides are rational. They occur when the genociders sincerely believe they're being attacked by the victims.
seydor 1y ago
We should remember that Donald Trump is not the only american
- _Algernon_ 1y ago
  Donald Trump is not the only American but he is the only American that matters for foreign policy, considering that checks and balances that are supposed to reign him in have been shown to have no teeth.
- master-lincoln 1y ago
  Yeah, but it seems like half of the other US Americans want him to represent them. So it's not unlikely that whoever comes after Trump acts like him too.
yupyupyups 1y ago
>rationally Predictably, not rationally.

Really? A nice rational genocide or two? China is an expansionist dictatorship. It would be ridiculous to suggest it is more trustworthy than the US. The US is actually acting rationally IMO. People just look at headlines and do not dig into the reasons. You might not agree with the reasoning, but it is not irrational. For example the tariffs clearly follow from arguments made by Trump's appointees (such as Bessent and Marin) even before the election, and definitely before being appointed.

aurareturn 1y ago
Really? A nice rational genocide or two? Huh? So China dealing with an internal extremist Islam problem is a genocide? But the US funding/providing weapons to Israel in the Gaza war is not a genocide? China is an expansionist dictatorship. It would be ridiculous to suggest it is more trustworthy than the US. The US has bombed 29 countries since WW2. How many has China bombed? The US has installed dictators in foreign countries, influenced countless democratic elections. How many has China installed?
- kubb 1y ago
  You’re getting downvoted, but the US foreign policy is more hawkish than China’s by any measure. Internally I’m inclined to believe that it can be hell on earth for minorities.
  - _Algernon_ 1y ago
    They are getting downvoted because they are arguing against a straw man. >But the US funding/providing weapons to Israel in the Gaza war is not a genocide? Nowhere did the comment they replied to claim that the war in Gaza isn't a genocide.
    - kubb 1y ago
      You’re right, but if you admit that, it’s hard to claim that China is more brutal than the US, and therefore less trustworthy.
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      Nowhere did the comment they replied to claim that the war in Gaza isn't a genocide. The author I responded to thinks China is worse in terms of genocides/killing people than the US. Therefore, the US is more "trustworthy". I gave examples countering that. The US has always dealt with Islam extremists with bombs and killings. China is doing it through education camps. No, the camps probably aren't pleasant. It's a hard problem that requires a hard solution. But to me, China's way seems way more humane. Viewed in another lens, perhaps China deserves a Nobel Peace prize for their camps instead of being labeled as a genocide.
echoangle 1y ago
By that viewpoint, everything is rational. If someone hears voices in their head that tell them to shoot up a school, there’s also some reasoning that may lead them to actually do it. That doesn’t mean it’s rational. Can you give an example of behavior you consider to be irrational?
- graemep 1y ago
  No, saying a particular thing is rational is very different from claiming everything is rational. People will make the wildest claims about Trumps' polices, even people who should know better. A good example is Jeffrey Sachs saying Trump's policies should would fail an economics class - but one of the people devising Trump's economic polices got a PhD from Harvard while Sachs was a professor there!
rfoo 1y ago
You know, sometimes I really wonder, if Uyghurs aren't white, are US/EU still going to make stretch to call the human right abuse during China's version of "counter-terrorism war" in Xinjiang "genocide" or not.
surgical_fire 1y ago
> China is an expansionist dictatorship. It would be ridiculous to suggest it is more trustworthy than the US. China never threatened to annex portions of EU countries, unlike the US. If anything, China is definitely more reliable, as its only disputes with EU are on trade, not anything ideological or that threatens the integrity of each party.
- master-lincoln 1y ago
  EU has issues with human rights violations regularly happening in China. China has even sanctioned European politicians voicing critique. Only recently some of those sanctions were lifted by China so they can negotiate trade agreements with the EU. China might be more reliable than the US right now, but ideologically they are further away from the EU than the US I think.
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    EU has issues with human rights violations regularly happening in China. China has even sanctioned European politicians voicing critique. Does China sanction France for its role in suppressing parts of Africa?[0] In the video comments, a lot of French citizens never even heard about it. That tells you that the French government is also hiding a ton of atrocities it's committing to its citizens, right? Why is the EU judging when they still violate human rights themselves? I think when Europeans criticize China for not having the same values as them, they should learn some history about how European powers tried to tear China apart and take advantage of it. Start with the photo of Austria-Hungary, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United States and the United Kingdom forces inside the Forbidden City.[1] Perhaps China not having the same values of European powers is a good thing in terms of overall peace? I would love to hear from EU citizens on why they should be the judge of all human moral values when their countries have arguably done more collectively to disturb the peace of others in the last 300 years than any country in Asia. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiD24uEvY1U [1]https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/50adfa2ae4b0cc1d786569eb/81c893e3-4967-4d3b-8857-0f78f44a0724/20240619+1024px-Within_historic_grounds_of_the_Forbidden_City_in_Pekin%2C_China%2C_on_November_28_celebrated_the_victory_of_the_Allies.%2C_ca._-_NARA_-_532582.jpg https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/50adfa2ae4b0cc...
_Algernon_ 1y ago
The US is already unlawfully sending people to foreign prisons. The US has over decades worked with dictatorships where it benefited them. The US has repeatedly and systematically overthrown legitimate democratic governments in favor of dictatorships where it benefited them. The US is founded on genocide of native Americans. The US has time and time again invaded countries for their resources. The US is the only country that has used nuclear weapons in war (twice). Don't pretend that the US is some paragon of virtue. China talks big about Taiwan but actions speak louder than words. So far I see very little action from China and a lot from the US spanning a century of aggression.
- lukan 1y ago
  "So far I see very little action from China" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Peo... I would argue with them getting stronger, they might get more active. Their fish trawlers behave pretty agressive worldwide. And they are part of their military.
  - _Algernon_ 1y ago
    Fair point but US still comes out on top: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_from_the_20th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States_from_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...
- computerthings 1y ago
  [dead]
lkramer 1y ago
China is definitely not a fun neighbour if you're The Philippines. One of the big problem with the US suddenly becoming so adversarial (whether rationally so or not) is that the choice for Europe may be to choose between the lesser of 2 evils, which in Europe's eyes could very well end up being China. China at least tend to behave consistently and predictably over a long term. The US radically changing behaviour every 4 years, and now even multiple times within a 100 day span, is just really really difficult to deal with. Not to mention making direct threats to European countries and generally working to oppose European interests.
LYK-love 1y ago
I happen to live in China right now and am using a VPN. I find your comments to be fundamentally incorrect. I live here more than 20 years and can't find any information about genocide, and I have a lot of (I suppose you are talking about) Xinjiang friends. Yes, there are extremists in Xinjiang with foreign funding. And The the government prepares extreme religious individuals for modern society. This process involves learning Chinese and learning basic skills to have a job. If people really died there, why we Chinese people don't know it? I mean I can literally drive to Xinjiang to check these information. If you don't believe my words and still think people are oppressed in Xinjiang or whatever place, please apply a Chinese visa and visit here. If your visit is short-term, then a visa is not even needed. Your narratives about China reflect self-projection. Western historical treatment of minorities doesn't mirror our approach. It's like saying Chinese people are too oppressed to afford bread or are forced to pick cotton—ignoring that bread isn't a Chinese staple and cotton-picking doesn't carry any other cultural meanings here. By the way, if I said capitalism makes Americans too poor to eat rice, wouldn't you find that ridiculous? I'm sure you would, because you guys generally don't eat rice. This projection is exactly what your views about China represent.
- _mlbt 1y ago
  > I live here more than 20 years and can't find any information about genocide China’s persecution of the Uyghur people is considered by many to cross the line into genocide… https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-guilty-genocide-crimes-humanity-uyghurs-watchdog-finds-rcna8157 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/china-guilty-genocide-cri... https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/chinese-persecution-of-the-uyghurs https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/countries/china/ch...
- lukan 1y ago
  "Yes, there are extremists in Xinjiang with foreign funding." Radical islmaists are definitely a thing, but don't you think, the chinese government considers anyone extremist not ok with one party rule? (I don't expect a honest answer, since you need a vpn to communicate) And that you don't find information and that your chinese friends don't find know about controversal topic, then this is rather a obvious sign to me, that chinese censorship is working.
immibis 1y ago
Most genocides are rational. They occur when the genociders sincerely believe they're being attacked by the victims.

seydor 1y ago

We should remember that Donald Trump is not the only american

_Algernon_ 1y ago
Donald Trump is not the only American but he is the only American that matters for foreign policy, considering that checks and balances that are supposed to reign him in have been shown to have no teeth.
master-lincoln 1y ago
Yeah, but it seems like half of the other US Americans want him to represent them. So it's not unlikely that whoever comes after Trump acts like him too.

yupyupyups 1y ago

>rationally Predictably, not rationally.