7 ms·
ViaCycle (YC S12) Is A Zipcar For Bikes, Coming To San Francisco Soon
- koenigdavidmj 14y agoPuget Sound Bike Share ( http://pugetsoundbikeshare.org/ http://pugetsoundbikeshare.org/ ) is in the early planning stages of getting something similar set up in Seattle.
- ddt 14y agoI've had the pleasure of talking to the guys from ViaCycle. Koji himself is a UW grad. Apparently it's difficult to do bike sharing in Seattle because of King County's helmet law.
- enjo 14y agoI'm surprised Bcycle hasn't moved into Seattle yet to be honest. They're setting up bike-shares all over the country (started here in Denver).
- will_work4tears 14y ago5 bucks a rental though, kinda steep if you are only going a few blocks. Very good if you are renting the day.
- koji 14y agoSeattle is located in King County, which has a mandatory helmet law for all riders, regardless of age. Melbourne, Australia has a program with helmet laws and it has struggled to maintain ridership. This is definitely a concern. Vancouver, BC is also launching a program in a similar situation, so people are watching it closely. There is undoubtedly a solution out there, but it may take some time to see how users adopt helmet requirements. We're definitely excited about the Puget Sound planning that is going on. I would love to see bikeshare in my hometown!
- philwelch 14y agoThe concern to me is less the helmet laws and more the fact that it's not actually safe to ride bicycles in most American cities without a helmet. It's not like we have physically separated bicycle routes like Copenhagen or anything--it's a basic safety precaution.
- dprice1 14y agoI agree and was really surprised to see the rider in the video not wearing a helmet, even though it is legal to do so in California if you are over 18 (it is not, however, smart). The answer is to just carry one with you-- they aren't heavy, and you can usually strap it onto a backpack when not in use. As an aside, riding on the sidewalk in the business district of Mountain View (the video is clearly Castro @ Villa) is not actually legal (http://library.municode.com/HTML/16508/level3/PTIITHCO_CH19MOVETR_ARTVIBIROSKCOELPEASMODEEP.html#PTIITHCO_CH19MOVETR_ARTVIBIROSKCOELPEASMODEEP._S19.51RIBISIPR http://library.municode.com/HTML/16508/level3/PTIITHCO_CH19M...)
- extraio 14y agoI'm wondering what happens when someone gets hit by a car and complains that the bike didn't include a helmet. Don't get me wrong. I love the idea in every way, shape, and form - but I have serious questions about the legal safety issues.
- gregsq 14y agoI'm not sure how each service deals with indemnification against such claims, but the legal requirement, if it exists, to wear helmets, certainly makes a difference to uptake. For health reasons, helmets are not considered as hireable with bikes in the Australian schemes. This makes it extremely difficult for either tourists or casual interests to just get up and go.
- extraio 14y agoDefinitely seems the problem is more accessibility than legality. If a helmet was included, it'd be beneficial to all parties - Reducing risk for the company and the customer. That's really the point I'm trying to make.
- nnash 14y agoWell you have to be a registered user to begin using the bikes so I'm sure there are precautionary clauses in their TOS which prevent people from suing for things like that.
- kazevedo 14y agoHelmet use is an issue we take very seriously. Fortunately, safety has been excellent for US programs, but we try to make sure everyone has access to the right equipment and education. We do require users to sign a waiver saying they understand the risks. Ultimately, it comes down to culture - grabbing a helmet needs to become as natural as putting on your seatbelt or grabbing your coat.
- gregsq 14y agoI checked up on the Australian experience, a country known for strict enforcement of helmet regulations, and found this. Perhaps you'll find it relevant. http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1192.html http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1192.html
- jhuckestein 14y agoIn Germany we have a system like this called call-a-bike (it's run by the german railway!). It works surprisingly well. You're allowed to leave the bikes wherever you want and if they are left unused for a while a truck will come and move them back to a central location. I really like what via cycle has done with the SMS unlocking. Back when I was in Germany, almost three years ago now (!), you had to call a service line to find/unlock a bike. Late at night there were usually wait times and it was especially difficult to manage the entire process if you were a little tipsy. There's similar systems in many other European countries. I hear great things about a system in France called velib (I think). Edit: I forgot to mention, the German bikes also have a second seat on the back. I'm not sure from the picture if this is also true for viaCycle but it's definitely one of the best features. Here's a picture http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/imgcache/5382.png* http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/imgcache/5382.png*
- koji 14y agoCall a bike in Germany is definitely a great system! viaCycle strives to improve on this by geo-fencing the bicycles when they need to be checked back into the system (and so you are no longer charged for usage). This helps maintain distribution and gives users reliable, structured locations to get bicycles, so they're not just strewn across cities.
- jhuckestein 14y agoYea, and logistical problems like that are what gets me excited about this. In grad school I did research on a on increasing the average vehicle occupancy in cities and we took a lot of inspiration from the bike sharing programs. Have you considered offering dynamic pricing based on the likelihood that the bike will be used in the near future? I.e. riding into the city should be cheaper than riding out of the city in most cases.
- kazevedo 14y agoAbsolutely! Dynamic pricing is something we're really excited about. It's still a young idea, but even large systems like Velib have implemented simple incentives for people who ride against traffic flow. Since our bikes always know where they are, we can be much more proactive about balancing each system. Edit: a few of us did graduate transportation research as well, your work sounds cool. Is it published anywhere?
- graeme 14y agoInteresting. I'm in Montreal, the birthplace of Bixi, which runs the London bike share program, and the upcoming NYC program as well as many others. Works fairly well, but apart from the cost the docking stations cost the city parking revenue. One major administrative cost is moving bikes around. People tend to take them downtown during the day, and out of the town at night. Even if you don't need docks, you still have to move bikes.
- kazevedo 14y agoDefinitely true. Redistribution is always a hurdle, though with viaCycle's realtime data, we can do some very cool things with incentives and pricing to help the system balance itself. Bixi takes a lot of parking spots partly because finding space for large stations is difficult. By using existing bike racks, we can often put in bikes without modifying anything. Plus, although parking is lucrative, replacing room for one car with 10 bikes that 100 people can use is a good trade in our book.
- graeme 14y agoOh, I actually meant via cycle avoids the parking revenue loss. It's a good thing. The pricing incentives idea is awesome. A win for commuters, free marketing for your service, and free labor. Someone would need an account for that, with payment info. Any plans to increase account uptake to serve that purpose?
- kazevedo 14y agoAh, got it. Thanks! We do take payment info on signup. Right now programs are localized so we set up different websites for each, but we hope to link everything together in the future. You can see an example at http://gt.viacycle.com http://gt.viacycle.com
- msrpotus 14y agoDoes that actually work to balance out demand enough? I know Paris tried to do the same thing but found that incentives weren't enough. Then again, that was the city government, so they may have been more constrained in terms of how large the incentives can be than you.
- parsnips 14y agoHow do they tackle the stolen/abandoned/damaged bike problems that plague every community bike program?
- koji 14y agoThis was a major factor we considered in our design. Every bicycle is GPS tracked, so you know their locations. The bicycles are designed to be rugged so they hold up to abuse, and regular maintenance is part of operations. There will always be issues, but nothing that can't be solved. There are hundred of modern programs in operations around the world, and it seems the theft issue has been overblown: http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/149446485.html http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/149446485.html
- jasonlotito 14y agoFirst thing I thought of is Bixi up in Montreal (and in Toronto, London, and Ottawa).
- maccam94 14y agoWe just got a similar system in Boston: http://www.thehubway.com/ http://www.thehubway.com/
- kurtvarner 14y agoTheir pricing structure seems super confusing. There's two full paragraphs talking about it.
- kazevedo 14y agoThanks for the feedback. It can seem complicated because we provide the billing platform but allow our customers to set pricing. Cities typically charge a monthly or annual membership, while companies usually provide bikes to their employees for free. Depending on who's operating your local program, you usually only have to choose between a few options.
- chollida1 14y agoGood luck We have this type of system( Bixi) in Toronto. When I first heard of it I kind-of sneered at it. I wasn't sure who would actually use this system. But it's pretty popular. Not sure if it makes any money though.
- physcab 14y agoViaCycle should sell its locking system then anyone with an unused bike can participate in the program!
- scdoshi 14y agoThat is definitely something we have discussed, once we get the unit cost down and some further miniaturization in hardware. We'd love to hear if more people think a consumer device like that would be useful.
- bemmu 14y agoThis locking system would sell some units just so you can have a key fob for your bicycle as you do for a car. Bonus points if it makes the same unlocking sound.
- codegeek 14y agoAbout time. In the US, we seriously need more emphasis on bikes and encouraging people to use them for shorter commutes. We either have to drive or walk (mostly). I once met a european lady (from Amsterdam I think) who would not stop talking about how behind the US in terms of bike culture, hardly any bike lanes on roads etc.
- kazevedo 14y agoHear hear! Things are changing for the better. Over the last 5 years, bike use has more than tripled in a lot of major cities. Bike sharing has the power to completely transform culture - Boston went from being rated the worst city for biking in the US to one of the top 5 after Hubway's launch.
- makmanalp 14y agoWe got this in Boston / Cambridge / Somerville: http://www.thehubway.com/ http://www.thehubway.com/
- avree 14y agoThere's a company doing this peer-to-peer (like Getaround, but for bikes) called Spinlister. https://www.spinlister.com/ https://www.spinlister.com/
- kazevedo 14y agoSpinlister is awesome. Eventually we hope to use our technology to automate personal bike rentals, just as Getaround does for cars. We'd love to talk to either of them about a partnership!
- jellicle 14y agoI love the idea, but it's doomed to failure. I live in a city with a bike-sharing system. It's deeply unprofitable and exists only at the sufferance of the city government. There are a number of flaws. Number 1 is that people who ride bikes don't rent them, they own them. For $100 anyone can purchase a bicycle that will last indefinitely and be available 24/7/365. Number 2 is that people vandalize the shit out of bicycles. Seats will be stolen, tires slashed, bicycles thrown in the river, cables cut. You're free to go after this sort of bicycle since it has no owner - no one is going to come storming out of a nearby store and kick your ass. Crackheads will steal a bicycle seat and try to sell it for $5 to get a hit of crack - I have watched them do it. We live in a world where people are routinely electrocuted trying to steal copper from live power wires and blown up stealing gasoline from pipelines. Those bikes might as well have a sign on them saying "steal me". If even ONE of the components can be removed and sold for a few dollars... http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/pariss-pedal-power-sets-free-uncivilized-behaviour/article1186322/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/pariss-pedal-power... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2009/06/26/montreal-missing-bixi-bikes.html http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2009/06/26/mont... Combining high cost of bicycles, ongoing cost to repair/replace/corral wayward bicycles, and low cost of the alternative (owning a bicycle), there is just no chance that this can be a successful business. You will recall people talking about the future of electricity, as being "too cheap to meter". Well, electricity never made it that far, but time on a bicycle did. Bicycle-time is too cheap to meter. (There may be some future for the company selling to cities or other large entities which intend to subsidize all the costs associated, but it can never be successful as a stand-alone business.)
- vasco 14y agoVery interesting information regarding monetization strategies and several problems regarding theft and vandalism of a network of the same kind in Paris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9lib
- AkThhhpppt 14y agoCounterpoints: http://en.velib.paris.fr/ http://en.velib.paris.fr/ http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/14808.aspx http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/14808.aspx http://www.citybikes.se/en/ http://www.citybikes.se/en/ http://www.dublinbikes.ie/ http://www.dublinbikes.ie/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bixi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bixi
- dougzor 14y agoThis reminds me some of WeBike: http://webikedoyou.com/ http://webikedoyou.com/ Regardless, glad to see some fellow Yellow Jackets doing well! Good luck guys!
- mmahemoff 14y ago"In addition, there is also an upfront cost of about $1,000 to $1,500 for every bike." A recent article from the Economist says London's bikes cost average price is £14,460/bike each, subsidised by government and advertising. Companies like ViaCycle will hopefully drop the price of these schemes. http://www.economist.com/node/21557527 http://www.economist.com/node/21557527
- msrpotus 14y agoHow are they so expensive? That doesn't sound right, unless it's looking at the entire cost of the program per bike, rather than just the marginal cost of a new bike.
- manaskarekar 14y agoI wonder if they considered calling themselves iCycle.
- maartenscholl 14y agoConcerning the design of the bikes, I think there is still room for improvement. The designers can look at the design of the Public Transportation Bike ("OV-Fiets") in the Netherlands[1] which was a major success in a country where there already were more bikes than people before it's introduction. For a bike that is available 24 you would want a bicycle lamp on the front with a dynamo instead of just reflectors. This is a safety concern because reflectors have proven to be unreliable to signal other road users. The bike doesn't have any mudguards but I suspect the weather in SF allows that :). The carrier on the back wheel doesn't look that sturdy and there is a large gap in the middle. A front rack to place heavier cargo on could be a benefit. What about bright colors so the bike stands out? [1]http://www.ov-fiets.nl/binaries/content/gallery/OV-fiets/nieuwsbrieven/zakelijk/vrouwopfiets_270_211px.jpg http://www.ov-fiets.nl/binaries/content/gallery/OV-fiets/nie...
- soperj 14y agoWhy would you want a dynamo if you could just have a battery powered led?
- maartenscholl 14y agoBatteries don't last and you need access to them in order to replace them, making theft easier. There are systems that integrate a dynamo in the chassis of the bike. It's also more environmentally friendly because you provide the power for the lamp. The article mentions there already is a battery in place powered by either solar or dynamo.
- koji 14y agoThere is definitely a lot of things we can do with the bicycles. viaCycle is actually bike agnostic. It's a modular device we can retrofit to secure onto numerous types of bicycles. It's easy to add features to bicycles as well, such as baskets, bells, etc. Customization is part of the offering. We're just showing off the bare-bones test bikes for the most part.
- gojomo 14y agoClearly, the time is almost right for my 'next wave' collaborative consumption startups: UnterCab: the Uber for pedicabs and piggyback-rides SmallBearings: the RelayRides for rollerskates & skateboards Hoparound: that seldom-used pogostick doesn't have to be gathering dust anymore
- carlob 14y agoI love bikes. I love the idea. I've loved living in Paris where a similar system was in place (Vélib'). However I think this is a textbook example of the shortcomings of capitalism: while it is great for everyone to live in a city where you can use such a bike, there is no way in hell this will pay for itself. JCDecaux operates the Vélib' system and was estimated to get the equivalent of 2000 euros per bike per year in advertising concessions from Paris' municipality [1] and still not to make a profit. As pointed out by others there are very high running costs and I believe the only viable way to pay for this is through taxes. I also believe taxes are the only just way to pay for it, because everyone benefits from living in a city with more bikes and less cars not only the users. Again, I'd love to be proven wrong and see SF become a greener city through this, but I'm a bit skeptical. [1] in French http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vélib%27#Viabilit.C3.A9 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vélib%27#Viabilit.C3.A9
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- crazygringo 14y agoHow are they going to deal with the fact that demand is not geographically distributed/balanced? E.g. everyone wants to ride towards downtown in the morning, so there are no bikes left elsewhere, and there isn't enough space downtown to hold all the bikes. And only 2/3 of the morning people want to ride back in the evening, because they're doing other things in the evening. IIRC, some European cities have whole trucks that carry bikes between neighborhoods throughout the day to solve this problem. But that only works if you have big concentrated bike-parking stations. You can't do this if bikes are parked all over the place on the street. It would be really interesting if this service would pay you to ride bikes in the opposite direction of demand. But I can't imagine that would be economical. There just aren't enough people to bike from downtown to the suburbs in the morning, plus you're going to have to pay for them all to get back downtown afterwards!
- koji 14y agoCurrent bike share programs do require redistribution of bicycles, often as often as twice a day. In large city operations viaCycle would likely be subject to this as well, but that leaves operation costs nominal. On university campuses we have seen the traffic to be much more free flowing, as students do not follow standard commute patterns. During standard maintenance bicycles can be moved around as needed. We have discussed the possibility of incentivizing riders to help redistribute bicycles, although the effectiveness of this has yet to be proven.
- schiffern 14y ago>We have discussed the possibility of incentivizing riders to help redistribute bicycles, although the effectiveness of this has yet to be proven. This is almost certainly because no-one has the data or analytics yet. Seems like a very interesting problem algorithmically. Even small incentives can have dramatic effects – look at the number of under-employed who recycle aluminum cans for 5-10¢/pop. It's by far the most cost-effective way to increase the rate of recycling. There are certainly quite a number of people willing to move bicycles a couple miles for $1-2. I know I'm beating the HN dead horse here, but markets do tend to be efficient at allocating resources when the basic costs are set correctly. With your mobile app, you have the advantage that you know not only where a bike was picked up, but how far the customer had to travel to reach it. With so much data at your disposal, you should be able to get a pretty good predictive handle on the ebb and flow of demand in the system. It'll be cool when I can subscribe to a higher tier to have my demand weighted more heavily. ;)
- rsbrown 14y agoYo, ViaCycle team: stop what you're doing right now and get an email signup form deployed to your homepage ASAP. I saw the headline, read the article, got excited, landed on the homepage, looked for San Francisco on the list of programs... then left the site, disappointed. You won't get a lot of opportunities to capture customers like the one you just got (and lost) with me. Use mailchimp or something similar and you can fill this deficiency in a few minutes.
- schiffern 14y agoSeems very similar to SoBi's offering. SoBi has the advantage of built-in vandalism detection, welded on GPS tracker (it looks like ViaCycle's is bolted on), a sealed shaft-driven drivetrain, and a more durable frame geometry. http://socialbicycles.com/ http://socialbicycles.com/ Exciting times. It looks like the next generation of bike sharing systems is arriving.
- kazevedo 14y agoWe do weld the locks to some of our bikes depending on the intended environment. No matter what the method, the attachment is at least semi-permanent and can't be removed by normal means. Since our system can be fitted to multiple bikes, we can easily incorporate shaft drive or a different frame if people want them. Our Biria frames are very sturdy and people love them!
- orang55 14y agoYes, the cost of installing a Bixi-like system is fairly expensive. However, when you're talking about transportation systems, Bikesharing is an absolute steal. Repaving a city street costs $338,000 per mile. A city bus costs anywhere from $500-750,000. Subway cars and commuter railcars run in the range of $2 million each. A 15-dock bikesharing station plus 8 bikes costs as much as a Lexus. http://www.capitalbikeshare.com/assets/pdf/cabi_station_sponsorship_flyer.pdf http://www.capitalbikeshare.com/assets/pdf/cabi_station_spon... Washington, DC built its entire bikesharing system for somewhere between $6 and $10 million. That's way less than the cost of a single 8-car Metro train. If we're talking about a system for a large city, the infrastructure costs are low enough as to be irrelevant. If the system can cover its operating costs (which DC's does, even at a surprisingly-high $1,860/bike/year cost), it's basically a slam-dunk. The bigger challenge will come from figuring out how to scale the system out into the suburbs. The problems associated with a decentralized system such as ViaCycle (difficult to attract causal users/tourists, significantly more prone to theft, much more difficult to redistribute, similar maintenance costs, more expensive bikes) don't seem to compensate for the reduced capital costs.
- Evbn 14y agoIf you make cities livable, suburbs become obsolete (or densify into cities)
- jasonkester 14y agoThis is pretty common in Europe, and as mentioned elsewhere here, somewhat doomed. I couldn't find anything in the linked article explaining how the founders hope to improve on those programs. In particular, I'm curious to see how they plan to avoid the "Velib Extreme" phenomenon: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7881079.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7881079.stm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afE44cHNkEg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afE44cHNkEg
- lucaspiller 14y agoIn the past I've used the government funded hire schemes in London and Dublin extensively and have had good experiences with them. I know how much they cost, so I'm happy to see an alternative. The only issue I see with this is that it looks particularly easy to remove their locking system. It uses a chain lock, so what is to stop me from "locking" it without putting the chain through the wheel? From there is looks easy to remove their hardware with a spanner as it seems to just be attached to the pannier rack mounting points.
- elmarschraml 14y agoBike-for-hire systems are like public transport: hard to run at a profit, but useful for a city to have. Most systems I know (Velib in Paris, Callabike in Munich) are very popular, but effectively run and subsidized by the government. ViaCycle does not plant to operate the bikeshare, but providing the bike infrastructure for the operator. Which is a smart move - because a) being the operator is unprofitable and b) operators probably dont want to deal with the bike tech. I would love to see a standardized, mass-produced bike intended for rent-a-bike services. It's really a different kind of bike - you need excellent protection against vandalism and theft more than sportiness or low weight. Also, each system currently has its own GPS/Phone tracking and hire system. If a company liek ViaCycle provides a cheaper, standardized system, it would probably lower the cost of runing a bike-for-hire system quite a bit.