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Fellow SF cyclist: Even setting aside the malicious SF stuff, Waymo's have enormous advantages over humans relying on mirrors and accounting for blindspots. I

Fellow SF cyclist: Even setting aside the malicious SF stuff, Waymo's have enormous advantages over humans relying on mirrors and accounting for blindspots. I never have to be concerned a Waymo hasn't seen me. I can't wait until the technology is just standard on cars, and they won't let drivers side-swipe or door cyclists.

dheera 1y ago
Dooring is so incredibly preventable with simple computer vision and some kind of actuator that adds an audible alarm and mechanical 3x resistance to the door opening when a cyclist is detected. The door should still be openable in emergency but should be hard to open until the cyclist passes. (For cars that have both a normally-used electronic door open button and a manual emergency release (e.g. Teslas), the electronic button can use the car's existing cameras to detect cyclists first before actuating the door to open. This would be a trivial software change in the specific case of Teslas. The only thing I dislike about the Tesla setup though is that most non-owners are unaware of where the mechanical emergency release is; it is not obvious and not labelled.)
- phoronixrly 1y ago
  You won't hear the end of complaints about how cyclists are now making cars more expensive...
  - dheera 1y ago
    Health insurance companies should pay for it. Their costs would come down if they subsidize the full R&D cost of this system for all car manufacturers. It would work in their favor. They're probably too stupid to think like that, though.
    - chris_va 1y ago
      Health insurance generally has a fixed profit margin (state legislation). They have little incentive to reduce cost because then the entire pie shrinks. A nice example of where well meaning legislation can completely backfire. Of course, passing costs to all insurance companies is really the same as passing it to all people paying insurance premiums, at which point you can just use tax money to get the same effect. At which point, it's probably easier to regulate it and have the cost passed to everyone buying a car.
- ra7 1y ago
  Waymo already warns you if it detects road users when you open a door. They just don't actively prevent you from opening the door, but they could implement it in their next generation vehicles.
  - kajecounterhack 1y ago
    They won't have to if they use sliding power doors (the geely cars have them). They should have had them for the jaguar generation :) Dooring people aside, what do you do if someone just leaves the door open when they leave their ride?!
    - tintor 1y ago
      You charge such riders additional penalty fee on their account. Waymo needs to have staff in SF anyway to pick up cars that malfunction (flat tire, or just close the door).
    - ra7 1y ago
      Oh, that's already a problem for them. There are videos of many Waymos stranded because the previous rider didn't close the door fully.
      - kajecounterhack 1y ago
        Haha yep! I meant that as a rhetorical question, it's just silly to not move to sliding power doors.
    - overfeed 1y ago
      > Dooring people aside, what do you do if someone just leaves the door open when they leave their ride?! Continue billing them for the ride and send an app notification or phone-call to their phone. Other potential solutions: If the door is still not closed after n minutes, plead with passers-by, or offer a passing or nearby rider the chance to earn credit by closing the door.
- FridayoLeary 1y ago
  That would lead to ridiculously overengineered car doors. It's already incredible how such a simple thing like a door can be so unreliable on newer cars, with handles that sink into the doorframe when not in use, or a locking system that only works with battery power. I'm not sure that adding more complexity would be a net benefit for society.
  - toast0 1y ago
    It's already there, my new fancy car has it. Push the lever to open with electronic help, pull the lever twice for mechanical release. The electronic help version checks for safety first (as long as you do it with a timeout from when the car was running/ready) We'll have to see how the fancy car does over time, but I did get one with handles on the outside that don't disappear.
- enragedcacti 1y ago
  You could probably design the latch jaws to have an electronically controlled second catch. It would activate whenever a cyclist is present so if someone tries to slam the door open it would catch with the door slightly open and trigger a warning. A second pull then opens the door no matter what for safety.
- porphyra 1y ago
  > This would be a trivial software change in the specific case of Teslas Tesla already has dooring prevention. If it detects a bicycle or something coming, it prevents you from opening the door the first time, and shows a warning. You can override it by trying to open it the second time, if you are sure. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1gwjq4v/new_antidooropening_featurehighland_on_version/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1gwjq4v/new_an...
- dghlsakjg 1y ago
  You could just design infrastructure and road rules such that cyclists aren't encouraged/required to ride in the dooring zone, or even hold people accountable for their actions beyond just the cost of the damages they cause. Car based damages are so normalized that we allow reckless or negligent behavior around cars that we would never allow in any other part of our cities.
Lammy 1y ago
> I never have to be concerned a Waymo hasn't seen me. Funnily enough that's exactly why I don't like them. Every time one rolls by me I know that tens of photos of me and even my 3D LIDAR scan get piled in to some fucking Google dataset where it will live forever :/ Their site is even proud of it: https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/ https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/ section titled “Keeping an eye on everything, all at once” “The Waymo Driver's perception system takes complex data gathered from its advanced suite of car sensors, and deciphers what's around it using AI - from pedestrians to cyclists, vehicles to construction, and more. The Waymo Driver also responds to signs and signals, like traffic light colors and temporary stop signs.”
- Manuel_D 1y ago
  Human drivers have dash cams, too. Maybe without as sophisticated a data ingestion system as google, but they could theoretically put their dashcam footage on youtube if they wanted to.
  - Lammy 1y ago
    I will be sure to think of that the next time I see a human driver whose car has 29 dash cams, 5 lidars, 4 radars, and is using four H100s to process all of its realtime images of me: https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2024/10/27/waymos-5-6-billion-round-and-details-of-the-ai-used/ https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2024/10/27/waymos-5-6...
    - XorNot 1y ago
      What is someone doing with all that which they can't do with front and back dashcams?
      - sokoloff 1y ago
        Correlation of data across time and other cars in the fleet.
    - Manuel_D 1y ago
twiceaday 1y ago
I bet that when this tech is in normal cars some will have it tuned to drive much more aggressively and/or simply have that be a setting. I suspect that would be a big selling point / driving tacitly would be an anti-selling point.
- zdragnar 1y ago
  Nah, insurance companies will change their coverage rates based on the feature, and / or it'll become another legally mandated feature like backup cameras.
  - twiceaday 1y ago
    Point is, there is flexibility in how different brands implement it. I think it will be the same as eco mode / sports mode / track mode.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      In the first years maybe. However governments are watching this data and will make it mandatory on when they decide it is really better. (Assuming it is better in unbiased study) There are many governments, it only takes one and the car makers will be looking at if the override button is worth having.
  - hombre_fatal 1y ago
    On the other hand, I wonder why insurance companies haven't led to the ubiquity of dashcams. I thought by now every vehicle sold would have one built in. And my suspicion is that insurance companies don't push for you to get one because it prevents them from fighting claims that they would've won had there been no evidence. Maybe it's similar for self-driving or whatever we're talking about here (sensors?).
    - happyopossum 1y ago
      They don’t care because at their scale it would be a wash - you’d only come out ahead if your insured drivers were consistently and significantly better drivers than every other insurance provider you fight claims against.
Toenex 1y ago
Honestly future generations will be aghast at how we accepted road deaths caused by human drivers.
- mavhc 1y ago
  It's only more than a 9/11 every day of the year
  - happyopossum 1y ago
    120 traffic deaths per day in the US - not sure where you’re getting your data, but you’re off by more than an order of magnitude
    - Zigurd 1y ago
      About 3900 per day worldwide. About 1000 more than on 9/11.
    - mavhc 1y ago
      I consider non Americans to be actual people too

dheera 1y ago

Dooring is so incredibly preventable with simple computer vision and some kind of actuator that adds an audible alarm and mechanical 3x resistance to the door opening when a cyclist is detected. The door should still be openable in emergency but should be hard to open until the cyclist passes. (For cars that have both a normally-used electronic door open button and a manual emergency release (e.g. Teslas), the electronic button can use the car's existing cameras to detect cyclists first before actuating the door to open. This would be a trivial software change in the specific case of Teslas. The only thing I dislike about the Tesla setup though is that most non-owners are unaware of where the mechanical emergency release is; it is not obvious and not labelled.)

phoronixrly 1y ago
You won't hear the end of complaints about how cyclists are now making cars more expensive...
- dheera 1y ago
  Health insurance companies should pay for it. Their costs would come down if they subsidize the full R&D cost of this system for all car manufacturers. It would work in their favor. They're probably too stupid to think like that, though.
  - chris_va 1y ago
    Health insurance generally has a fixed profit margin (state legislation). They have little incentive to reduce cost because then the entire pie shrinks. A nice example of where well meaning legislation can completely backfire. Of course, passing costs to all insurance companies is really the same as passing it to all people paying insurance premiums, at which point you can just use tax money to get the same effect. At which point, it's probably easier to regulate it and have the cost passed to everyone buying a car.
ra7 1y ago
Waymo already warns you if it detects road users when you open a door. They just don't actively prevent you from opening the door, but they could implement it in their next generation vehicles.
- kajecounterhack 1y ago
  They won't have to if they use sliding power doors (the geely cars have them). They should have had them for the jaguar generation :) Dooring people aside, what do you do if someone just leaves the door open when they leave their ride?!
  - tintor 1y ago
    You charge such riders additional penalty fee on their account. Waymo needs to have staff in SF anyway to pick up cars that malfunction (flat tire, or just close the door).
  - ra7 1y ago
    Oh, that's already a problem for them. There are videos of many Waymos stranded because the previous rider didn't close the door fully.
    - kajecounterhack 1y ago
      Haha yep! I meant that as a rhetorical question, it's just silly to not move to sliding power doors.
  - overfeed 1y ago
    > Dooring people aside, what do you do if someone just leaves the door open when they leave their ride?! Continue billing them for the ride and send an app notification or phone-call to their phone. Other potential solutions: If the door is still not closed after n minutes, plead with passers-by, or offer a passing or nearby rider the chance to earn credit by closing the door.
FridayoLeary 1y ago
That would lead to ridiculously overengineered car doors. It's already incredible how such a simple thing like a door can be so unreliable on newer cars, with handles that sink into the doorframe when not in use, or a locking system that only works with battery power. I'm not sure that adding more complexity would be a net benefit for society.
- toast0 1y ago
  It's already there, my new fancy car has it. Push the lever to open with electronic help, pull the lever twice for mechanical release. The electronic help version checks for safety first (as long as you do it with a timeout from when the car was running/ready) We'll have to see how the fancy car does over time, but I did get one with handles on the outside that don't disappear.
enragedcacti 1y ago
You could probably design the latch jaws to have an electronically controlled second catch. It would activate whenever a cyclist is present so if someone tries to slam the door open it would catch with the door slightly open and trigger a warning. A second pull then opens the door no matter what for safety.
porphyra 1y ago
> This would be a trivial software change in the specific case of Teslas Tesla already has dooring prevention. If it detects a bicycle or something coming, it prevents you from opening the door the first time, and shows a warning. You can override it by trying to open it the second time, if you are sure. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1gwjq4v/new_antidooropening_featurehighland_on_version/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/1gwjq4v/new_an...
dghlsakjg 1y ago
You could just design infrastructure and road rules such that cyclists aren't encouraged/required to ride in the dooring zone, or even hold people accountable for their actions beyond just the cost of the damages they cause. Car based damages are so normalized that we allow reckless or negligent behavior around cars that we would never allow in any other part of our cities.

Lammy 1y ago

> I never have to be concerned a Waymo hasn't seen me. Funnily enough that's exactly why I don't like them. Every time one rolls by me I know that tens of photos of me and even my 3D LIDAR scan get piled in to some fucking Google dataset where it will live forever :/ Their site is even proud of it: https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/ https://waymo.com/waymo-driver/ section titled “Keeping an eye on everything, all at once” “The Waymo Driver's perception system takes complex data gathered from its advanced suite of car sensors, and deciphers what's around it using AI - from pedestrians to cyclists, vehicles to construction, and more. The Waymo Driver also responds to signs and signals, like traffic light colors and temporary stop signs.”

Manuel_D 1y ago
Human drivers have dash cams, too. Maybe without as sophisticated a data ingestion system as google, but they could theoretically put their dashcam footage on youtube if they wanted to.
- Lammy 1y ago
  I will be sure to think of that the next time I see a human driver whose car has 29 dash cams, 5 lidars, 4 radars, and is using four H100s to process all of its realtime images of me: https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2024/10/27/waymos-5-6-billion-round-and-details-of-the-ai-used/ https://thelastdriverlicenseholder.com/2024/10/27/waymos-5-6...
  - XorNot 1y ago
    What is someone doing with all that which they can't do with front and back dashcams?
    - sokoloff 1y ago
      Correlation of data across time and other cars in the fleet.
  - Manuel_D 1y ago

twiceaday 1y ago

I bet that when this tech is in normal cars some will have it tuned to drive much more aggressively and/or simply have that be a setting. I suspect that would be a big selling point / driving tacitly would be an anti-selling point.

zdragnar 1y ago
Nah, insurance companies will change their coverage rates based on the feature, and / or it'll become another legally mandated feature like backup cameras.
- twiceaday 1y ago
  Point is, there is flexibility in how different brands implement it. I think it will be the same as eco mode / sports mode / track mode.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    In the first years maybe. However governments are watching this data and will make it mandatory on when they decide it is really better. (Assuming it is better in unbiased study) There are many governments, it only takes one and the car makers will be looking at if the override button is worth having.
- hombre_fatal 1y ago
  On the other hand, I wonder why insurance companies haven't led to the ubiquity of dashcams. I thought by now every vehicle sold would have one built in. And my suspicion is that insurance companies don't push for you to get one because it prevents them from fighting claims that they would've won had there been no evidence. Maybe it's similar for self-driving or whatever we're talking about here (sensors?).
  - happyopossum 1y ago
    They don’t care because at their scale it would be a wash - you’d only come out ahead if your insured drivers were consistently and significantly better drivers than every other insurance provider you fight claims against.

Toenex 1y ago

Honestly future generations will be aghast at how we accepted road deaths caused by human drivers.

mavhc 1y ago
It's only more than a 9/11 every day of the year
- happyopossum 1y ago
  120 traffic deaths per day in the US - not sure where you’re getting your data, but you’re off by more than an order of magnitude
  - Zigurd 1y ago
    About 3900 per day worldwide. About 1000 more than on 9/11.
  - mavhc 1y ago
    I consider non Americans to be actual people too