11 ms·
As someone who is often on SF city streets without a car - I bike and run a lot - I absolutely love Waymo. I am continuously seeing human drivers cut me off, pe
by johnfn 1y ago
As someone who is often on SF city streets without a car - I bike and run a lot - I absolutely love Waymo. I am continuously seeing human drivers cut me off, perform illegal maneuvers (i.e. run red lights when I'm going through a crosswalk), and break various other traffic laws. All these things genuinely put people in danger. Just the other day, a guy started running a "no right turn on red" lane in SF, and when I pointed it out to him he floored his car - through the red - right in front of me and laughed at me as he sped away. To say nothing of all the times when cars will honk or give me the finger for doing normal things on a street, like walking on a crosswalk.
Waymo is like the most courteous, respectful driver you can possibly imagine. They have infinite patience and will always take the option which is the safest for everyone. One thing which really impressed me is how patient they are at crosswalks. When I'm jogging, a Waymo will happily wait for me to cross - even when I'm 10 feet away from even entering the crosswalk! I don't know if I even have that much patience while driving! I've had a number of near misses with human drivers who don't bother checking or accelerate for no reason after I'm already in the crosswalk. Can you imagine a Waymo ever doing that?
If I see a Waymo on the street near me I immediately feel safer because I know it is not about to commit some unhinged behavior. I cannot say enough good things about them.
- biophysboy 1y agoI am also hopeful that Waymo has other positive externalities for bikes/pedestrians: less need for parking spots, car ownership, etc. At the same time, I guess you could say the same for rideshare, so it would depend on if robo-rideshare is cheaper than ownership
- VOIPThrowaway 1y agoMy prediction is that car usage will go thought the roof when AI cars work. People can have a stress-free commute to a nice house in the countryside and work in the cities. Because the car is electric, it will be inexpensive to run.
- biophysboy 1y agowell, I guess my hope is that renting a car whenever needed is cheaper than the cost of purchasing, maintaining, insuring, and storing a personal robocar. It would be quite hard to make the US more car-dependent than it already is! But I am speculating - you may very well be right
- bluGill 1y agoIt will only be cheaper if you don't drive much anyway, and you are the type who would never be seen in a car more than 3 years old. If you drive a lot (like the person in the countryside) the car that is there when you want to is worth owning vs a shared car that you might have to wait for. Plus by owning the car you can just leave your golf clubs in the trunk. If you can stand being in a used car you will discover that shared cars are all more expensive just because at the first sign of cosmetic wear they get rid of it while seats that have been sat in a few times are still good enough for many more years. (unless you almost never drive anyway) Because of the above I don't see much growth in the shared car market. There will be some because there are people who don't have parking, people who don't drive much, and people who demand a new car that they don't otherwise care about. However the vast majority of people will still own their own car.
- creer 1y agoCost is only one dimension of renting a car. As long as the car rental companies keep making it as painful as possible, it won't be a solution for usual usage. Hopefully Waymo goes after them too.
- bluGill 1y agoVery much. They often don't have cars at all - despite letting you reserve them. Or they are not open when your train arrives / leaves. I'm considering a 3 day drive my next trip in part because it is the only way to be sure we can get around when there. (we are going to a remote location where I wouldn't expect public transit to serve, but the train station is in a small town that still should have some transit but doesn't)
- Zigurd 1y agoRide hailing gameification negates safety benefits. They do monitor for smooth, driving, but that's about it.
- philomath_mn 1y agoBest part is that they probably have data to show that all that patience costs the typical passenger mere seconds to a minute on 99% of rides. This has always bothered me about aggressive or impatient human drivers: they are probably shaving like 30 seconds off of their daily commute while greatly increasing the odds of an incident.
- dheera 1y ago[flagged]
- asadm 1y agogood thing drones are getting smarter
- dheera 1y agoWell sure but drones won't shit, that's why we need the organic piece. I guess they could drop rotten fruit in lieu of shit, but then we need a supply chain to restock the rotten fruit in the drones.
- elefanten 1y agoOr just implement vastly more automated ticketing systems. They are standard in many countries. They could be implemented with limited-purview privacy preserving architectures where that aligns with expectations and values. But people speeding, driving aggressively, driving anti-socially (by trying to speed past lines and cut in at the front), running lights and stops... this could be squashed forever, saving lives and ultimately making life more pleasant for everyone.
- johnfn 1y agoIt's so frustrating. These things are trivially solved. There's basically a 50/50 shot, every time the light cycles, that someone will illegally take a right on red on the street outside my house. All you need is a single cop sitting there and watching. Or just one camera! Argh.
- sollewitt 1y agoFellow SF cyclist: Even setting aside the malicious SF stuff, Waymo's have enormous advantages over humans relying on mirrors and accounting for blindspots. I never have to be concerned a Waymo hasn't seen me. I can't wait until the technology is just standard on cars, and they won't let drivers side-swipe or door cyclists.
- dheera 1y agoDooring is so incredibly preventable with simple computer vision and some kind of actuator that adds an audible alarm and mechanical 3x resistance to the door opening when a cyclist is detected. The door should still be openable in emergency but should be hard to open until the cyclist passes. (For cars that have both a normally-used electronic door open button and a manual emergency release (e.g. Teslas), the electronic button can use the car's existing cameras to detect cyclists first before actuating the door to open. This would be a trivial software change in the specific case of Teslas. The only thing I dislike about the Tesla setup though is that most non-owners are unaware of where the mechanical emergency release is; it is not obvious and not labelled.)
- phoronixrly 1y agoYou won't hear the end of complaints about how cyclists are now making cars more expensive...
- dheera 1y agoHealth insurance companies should pay for it. Their costs would come down if they subsidize the full R&D cost of this system for all car manufacturers. It would work in their favor. They're probably too stupid to think like that, though.
- chris_va 1y agoHealth insurance generally has a fixed profit margin (state legislation). They have little incentive to reduce cost because then the entire pie shrinks. A nice example of where well meaning legislation can completely backfire. Of course, passing costs to all insurance companies is really the same as passing it to all people paying insurance premiums, at which point you can just use tax money to get the same effect. At which point, it's probably easier to regulate it and have the cost passed to everyone buying a car.
- mdeeks 1y agoMy favorite thing from my first Waymo ride was watching a lady walk up to the middle of the street to cross. The Waymo saw her, slowed, and waited to let her cross. She smiled and waved and immediately felt dumb because who is she waving to? Do I wave back? We laughed at each other as it drove away. Ever since then my fear melted away. They see every direction, never blink, and are courteous and careful with pedestrians.
- D-Coder 1y agoHey, sometimes I say "Thanks!" to Siri. Might as well keep an automatic response even if it's not always useful.
- thelastgallon 1y agoMore than half of all road traffic deaths are among vulnerable road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/road-traffic-injuries https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/road-traffi...
- werrett 1y agoI’m a fellow cyclist in SF and can only wholeheartedly second this. To add some extra anxiety, I’m usually riding a cargo bike, ferrying a child to or from daycare. I still remember the first time I went through a four-way stop intersection and saw a driverless car idling, waiting for its turn. It was weird and nerve-wracking. Now… I’d much prefer that to almost any other interaction at the same spot.
- nadis 1y agoIt's really interesting seeing all the comments from cyclists regarding Waymos. I currently live in a Waymo-less city and they weren't common enough in SF when I was biking there to be a big factor but I remember some harrowing moments with human drivers (without precious cargo - that sounds extra scary!). I'd be curious to try it again and am pleasantly surprised to hear it makes such a big difference!
- kion 1y agoThe thing I dislike about Waymo is other drivers. I've now had it happen twice that a car will fully blow through an intersection because they know a Waymo will slam on the breaks to avoid a collision. They basically abuse the car's reflexes. Also in any sort of situation where the Waymo is being very cautious the biggest danger is the impatient people behind the Waymo who will break the law to go out and around it.
- XorNot 1y agoThis probably bizarrely justifies the pulp scifi trope of the automated car having an human-like android driver.
- testing22321 1y agoI mean, if you want to merge in heavy traffic and nobody is letting you in everyone knows to cut in front of a very expensive car. They’ll brake.
- SchemaLoad 1y agoMost of the world already solved this problem with red light cameras.
- hombre_fatal 1y agoReturning to Houston after living abroad for 10 years, the biggest culture shock was that everyone runs red lights. Every time the light turns green for you, you can expect 1-3 cars to keep rolling through until you can go. I've almost been rear ended by not running a light that just turned red because the person behind me also wants to floor it through. Yakety sax shit. Then I found out in 2019, the Texas legislature outlawed the use of red-light cameras. Muh freedum.
- gruez 1y ago>Then I found out in 2019, the Texas legislature outlawed the use of red-light cameras. >Muh freedum. To be fair you have progressives arguing against red light cameras as well, on the basis that it's a regressive tax on poor people, and that it causes more accidents through drivers slamming on the brakes on a yellow.
- bamboozled 1y agoAs a cyclist, this is the dream IMO, letting everyone be in cars while safely being able to ride my bike without fear of death or road rage. Looking forward to this future.
- testing22321 1y agoIt’s really cool to read reports like this, keeping in mind that just a few years ago many people were loudly proclaiming self driving cars were decades away, and would never be safer drivers than humans. If they keep up the slow and steady improvements and roll outs to cities worldwide it’s hard to imagine my one year old ever needing to drive a vehicle.
- promptdaddy 1y agoUnwary drivers would be at the bottom of my List-of-Dangerous-SF-Things
- lubujackson 1y agoI agree, to a point. Waymo has some vaguely aggressive habits that are usually for the best, like initiating their turn forcefully, but there is one specific thing I've noticed. Coming down Mason and turning left onto Bush it is a one way street turning left onto a one way street. Twice now while trying to cross with the light Waymos have crept into the crosswalk while I was already crossing. It's very unsettling. I imagine the weirdness of the situation (legal left on red) triggers it's "creep forward so I can see" logic but it definitely shouldn't be blocking a busy crosswalk there when there is little to know chance it will be able to turn AND peds from both sides.
- globular-toast 1y agoThey are now because winning trust is their biggest hurdle. They've got the "public risk" slider turned all the way down. Let's hope they don't later start to optimise for speed and realise that people probably won't just step out due to fear of death and it's in their best interest to nurture that fear like human drivers currently do.
- rlue 1y agoThe one time I ever rode in a waymo (in Los Angeles), I had a contradictory experience. My Waymo was attempting to make a right turn at a red light. We were stopped behind a human driver who was waiting for pedestrians to finish crossing before proceeding to make the turn. This was a college campus (UCLA), so there were lots of pedestrians. After a few seconds of waiting, the Waymo decided that the driver ahead of us was an immobile obstacle, and cut left around this car to complete the right turn in front of it. There was only one lane to turn into. Luckily, no one was hurt, and I generally trust a waymo not to plow into a pedestrian when it makes a maneuver like that. I also understand the argument that autonomous vehicles are easily safer on average than human drivers, and that’s what matters when making policy decisions. But they are not perfect, and when they make mistakes, they tend to be particularly egregious.
- GavinMcG 1y agoThat mistake might induce human error—which is absolutely a source of danger—but it undoubtedly had a clear path to pull around the “stopped” vehicle, and as you said, you can generally trust Wayno not to plow into pedestrians. So what made it “lucky” that no one was hurt?
- RandomBacon 1y agoIf the "stopped" vehicle made the turn as the Waymo made the presumably-illegal turn into the "stopped" vehicle that was now moving?
- kaliqt 1y agoSo the answer is that we clearly need that car also to be a Waymo. Problem solved! Hah.
- rubyfan 1y agoWhy don’t we have cars talk to each other and coordinate their routing? Like some sort of peer to peer mechanism that helps them not crash each other. Why can’t vehicles be made to stop at cross walks when someone is crossing with some sort of communication to the vehicle?
- babyent 1y agoI saw a waymo break a red light yesterday in Nob Hill. I think they’re cool but I exercise extra caution around them. Besides, this is a study on Waymo probably influenced by them too to publish on their blog.
- braaannigan 1y agoI wonder how will this behaviour evolve over time? Right now waymo is definitely prioritising safety, but as the tech matures (and competition grows) will the systems start to prioritise speed and so little-by-little start cutting the margins they give to pedestrians? As with any digital platform this degradation wouldn't be explicitly chosen, but just the consequence of many little A/B tests designed to optimise some other metric
- jajko 1y agoYou just described situation in Switzerland (and some other western European countries). I don't mean some tiny isolated situation or place, I mean whole countries, anything from tiny village to biggest traffic jam-packed cities. Sometimes I am ashamed a bit how early drivers break for me as a pedestrian and let me pass, like 3m from road when they and 2-3 more cars could easily pass through without affecting my crossing. The problem is getting used to this and then going to places where this is not the norm, potentially very dangerous especially for kids.
- chrsw 1y agoI feel like this study aligns with my experience. I don't live in a Waymo city but I do sometimes drive to the office. I find many other drivers to be impatient, short tempered, selfish and at least once a trip, borderline reckless. Computer drivers definitely aren't perfect. But from what I can tell they aren't intentionally unsafe and will probably improve over time. I wish I could say the same for humans.
- SoftTalker 1y agoOnce pedestrians and cyclists figure out that Waymo cars will always stop or avoid them they will start ignoring crosswalks and signals and just cross or cut in front of them.
- xixixao 1y agoWhich would be wonderful? (assuming all cars have similar tech at that point) Basically every street could be a shared space like Exhibition Road[0]. Making the city optimized for cars is a relatively recent development in the history of cities. I say this as a car owner and driver. [0] https://www.udg.org.uk/publications/articles/exhibition-road-london-decade https://www.udg.org.uk/publications/articles/exhibition-road...
- gs17 1y agoThat already happens all the time where I am, so I guess it would at least be safer.
- matthewdgreen 1y agoOne night a few weeks ago I took a Waymo ride at night. Somewhere out in an unfamiliar neighborhoood, I realized that I hadn't seen a human being for dozens of blocks. The streets were full of cars, but every single one was an empty Waymo or Zoox. I spent the rest of the ride musing about what would happen if an armed mugger jumped in front of the car at the next traffic light, and the whole thing felt a little bit less safe.
- herewulf 1y agoFeature request: Don't brake for armed muggers.