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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

790 points by freetonik 1y ago

lupusreal 1y ago
Where they not already? In America they started off banned as soon as kids started getting them in the early 00s, but then some years later the bans became unenforced or even undone because, apparently, parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) But that shouldn't apply in Finland at all.
- Hamuko 1y ago
  At least in my time they were pretty much banned. You could have your phone on you but if you got caught using it during class, they'd just confiscate it. Of course, some exceptions apply like if a teacher informed of some upcoming event, you could pull up your phone and set it in your calendar without getting chewed out. Not sure what's happened since.
  - technothrasher 1y ago
    At my son's school, they have to put the cell phones into the "phone hotel" at the beginning of the day, and they pick them back up at the end. But it is performance only, really. If the kid really wants a cell phone, they'll just put an old one in the phone hotel and keep their real one hidden in their bag. But even that isn't really done all that much, as they're required to have laptops for class and they can do anything social and/or distracting they'd want to do on the phone on the laptop instead.
  - cudder 1y ago
    I went to primary school in 1999-2008 and it was the same for me. After that I started my secondary education in business school in 2008 and there were basically zero restrictions on smartphone use. Smartphones probably became ubiquitous in primary school after that too, but this law seems to also target secondary schools which sounds stricter than it used to be.
- n4r9 1y ago
  School shootings do happen in Finland, although they're rarer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viertola_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viertola_school_shooting
  - jajko 1y ago
    And thats no reason to let kids do empty highly addictive activity unhinged instead of getting prepared for later life. Emotional reactions != smart ones.
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - pandemic_region 1y ago
        Are you implying we should school them the Spartan way rather then? Would that prepare them for life in a better way? Or, what do you think would be valuable then to do (purposely not saying learn) during those twelve years?
        constantcrying 1y ago
        I am not implying anything. >Or, what do you think would be valuable then to do (purposely not saying learn) during those twelve years? I think that this is different between children. Actually I think it could be extremely valuable to learn, but then the child's activities should actually focus on learning effectively. And sitting in a classroom with children not that interested in learning and a teacher trying to find some middle ground is not helping that. Personally I believe that with a good school system I would have been perfectly fine doing university courses at 16 and a good school system would have encouraged me to accomplish exactly that.
      - ndr42 1y ago
        I've read the same comment from you as a response to three different comments. I will just answer here: "There is substantial evidence to suggest that education influences intelligence.[3]" (From Wikipedia) [3] Baltes, P., & Reinert, G. (1969). Cohort effects in cognitive development in children as revealed by cross sectional sequences. Developmental Psychology, 1, 169-177.
- CivBase 1y ago
  > parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) It really is a dumb argument. Your primary concern in a school shooting should be getting out safely not messing around with your phone. One more 911 call won't make police any more effective. The phone isn't making you any safer. If anything, it's a distraction putting you in danger. Once you've made it to safety, you won't have any trouble contacting your parents whether or not you have a smartphone.
- DocTomoe 1y ago
  > kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) Considering the US is a country where two dozen cops stay out of a school with an active school shooter until they have run out of bullets ... yeah, it is. No-one wants to hear the local TV station run the dying screams of their children. Better not give them phones so they can call for help (or give the cops information, which would be pointless to begin with).
PeterStuer 1y ago
If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  Is that the aim of schools? It certainly did not appear to me that way, here in Germany. There was a lot of time spend sitting in a room and "learning", yet I basically learned nothing. For the other things you described I do not think they were ever considered. All around school was a giant waste of time.
  - bnegreve 1y ago
    Surely reading/writing are useful skills that most people did not have before school was mandatory.
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      I did not take me twelve years to learn to read and write. What an awful excuse. What made me good at reading was reading books outside of school. In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school.
      - moooo99 1y ago
        > In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school. I learned more in a single year on the job than I did in 3 years of university. That doesn’t make university useless
      - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
        No, I don’t think that’s true. The 12 years of the pre-uni education set you up for being a member of society. You don’t see it because it became a part of you. You also learned to read, write, all basic math, geography, … The uni taught you more real-world expected skills but I‘m certain you learned more before uni.
gostsamo 1y ago
Kids should not have access to anything more complex than a Nokia with a flashlight.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  TI calculator with Doom?
- abofh 1y ago
  Kids have access to what their parents give them - I suspect most parents shouldn't be trusted with a flashlight or a nokia.
constantcrying 1y ago
[flagged]
- sofixa 1y ago
  > What is the point of school? Why do children have to spend 12 years of their lives learning basically nothing and coming out anything but well formed adults. So that every kid has a uniform and common base of knowledge that helps them understand the world around them, and enables them to go further by learning more or starting to work. With no mandatory schooling, most kids would be illiterate and ignorant. A lot of countries, even developed ones, already struggle with the second (antivaxers, flat earthers, voting for dumb populists, etc.). Which indicates the need to improve, not remove. If there was no schooling, how would kids becoming young adults even know what they're interested in to do? Would they know that e.g. chemistry or physics are things that exist if nobody explained the basics to them? Or would they just continue doing what their parents did, condemning them to a vicious cycle and almost zero social mobility? From history, the latter.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    >So that every kid has a uniform and common base of knowledge that helps them understand the world around them, and enables them to go further by learning more or starting to work. Oh, I must have missed that class.
    - tekla 1y ago
      I'm guessing you skipped it
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        I "skipped" like two days in my entire school life by pretending to be sick. If that was taught in those two days I will obviously apologize.
  - graemep 1y ago
bcraven 1y ago
I'd recommend watching Social Studies to get an idea of what phone use in schools can look like. It's filmed in LA but I'm sure can be applied generally. The amount of anxiety on show is really saddening. https://thetvdb.com/series/social-studies-452444 https://thetvdb.com/series/social-studies-452444
geremiiah 1y ago
Is it possible to fight Internet addiction without banning stuff? While it helps to ban smartphones during school, it won't stop these kids from logging on for 5 to 7 hrs after school. We need to find ways to make people (not just kids) more resilient to Internet addiction without resorting to widespread bans, which are both hard to implement, unlikely to keep people away long term and dangerous for other reasons.
- _flux 1y ago
  Maybe it does help increasing resiliency by forcing them not use the device for the day? Whether it does that will be found during the next few years. Why is it unlikely in long term? You pose this as a question, but I find it's quite easy to say "we need to achieve this some other way" but then not having a concrete suggestion what that other way could be.
- ndr42 1y ago
  I do not think kids and everybody else are standing a chance against all the money that is thrown at making and keeping them addicted. So I fear if we do not want them to be addicted we have to prohibit things (it does not need to be smartphones, it could be mechanisms on these devices).
  - FinnLobsien 1y ago
    Bingo. The decline of smoking wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for banning smoking in most public places and everywhere indoors, removing cigarette vending machines, etc.
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    Prohibition didn't work for booze, doesn't work for drugs. Why would you be expecting better results for this ?
    - Ekaros 1y ago
      Smoking ban in bars and restaurants seem to work. So doing same with phones in schools during lesson time does not seem unreasonable.
Kaethar 1y ago
I wonder if there's any alternatives to this that teach actual discipline when it comes to phones. Methods that actually attack the reason kids are using phones in school (boredom, social anxiety, uninterested in school etc.).
- skydhash 1y ago
  I remember being a kid and I wouldn’t need any reason to using smartphones at school. And we did bring banned things like walkman, gameboy, dumb phones,… And we only needed to spend 5 hours there.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  I think this would be reasonable except for all the billion dollar companies pouring their money into researching how to keep the kids on their phones. The solution supposes that there's a state of mind the child could have that would give a smaller intrinsic need for the phone and that would be that, but this falls down when there are better funded and more powerful entities than the schools and parents pushing extrinsic motivations to stay on the phone for longer and longer.
- stevage 1y ago
  What I hear from teachers is they are constantly bombarded by notifications. They aren't idly playing on their phones. They're constantly responding to things happening. There's seriously no alternative to banning them, and I don't even see the interest in trying.
FinnLobsien 1y ago
I'm totally in favor of this, but there's something poetic about the country of Nokia banning smartphones.
- adverbly 1y ago
  Is this just smartphones they are banning? Can kids still use oldschool Nokia phones?
cromulent 1y ago
Note that this means "in class" rather than "in school".
- nicce 1y ago
  ”in school” is left for the school to decide. The can ban in breaks too.
nntwozz 1y ago
What about smartwatches? The Apple Watch is very capable, I wonder if this will become a loophole.
- Hamuko 1y ago
  Phones, tablets, headphones, laptops, and smartwatches according to HS. https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000011201797.html https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000011201797.html
Tade0 1y ago
The main (literal) takeaway is that teachers can now confiscate phones. Over here, at the other end of the Baltic sea, there's an ongoing debate about phones in the classroom and some schools have regulations in place regarding the use of electronic devices, but these are largely toothless as otherwise they would infringe on the right to property. I graduated high school before the smartphone era, so I don't have much of a point of reference, but I'm leaning on disallowing at least Wi-Fi/mobile data - that's the largest source of distraction in my view.
- esperent 1y ago
  > they would infringe on the right to property. Can children bring in portable hifi systems? What about those squeaky chicken toys? Or a water pistol?
  - Tade0 1y ago
    My sister's friend brought a microwave oven once and started making grilled cheese sandwiches during recess. He was told to unplug and never bring it again, but it was not confiscated. My classmate brought a super-sized calculator to class for tests, as he had a medical condition which allowed him to bring "a calculator". The buttons made a lot of noise but, again, it was not confiscated.
    - badc0ffee 1y ago
      Can you make grilled cheese in a microwave?
      - esperent 1y ago
        Probably some disgusting prepackaged microwavable "cheese" sandwiches.
        badc0ffee 1y ago
        Turns out you're right: https://foodisstupid.substack.com/p/can-you-make-toast-in-your-microwave https://foodisstupid.substack.com/p/can-you-make-toast-in-yo... The hot pockets "crisping sleeve" makes this possible.
jampekka 1y ago
This was mostly a kind of political posturing law by a deeply unpopular government. Teachers and schools already had the authority to ban phone use in class, including that they must be put into a cabinet, and most in fact already did.
Kim_Bruning 1y ago
I deplore the fact that schools need to resort to banning phones. When I was younger I imagined a world in which computing devices would be a boon to (young) people everywhere. But many apps appear to be detrimental to people's mental health, both young and old. Possibly this can be changed. Maybe separate app stores are a solution (think f-droid)? Or maybe we need to start looking a lot harder at apps that might actually be user hostile.
- asadotzler 1y ago
  Computing devices could have done that except the people making them built hellscapes with black hole level gravity to sell us shit we don't need so now we have to treat computing devices like cigarettes and begin limiting their use in meaningful ways and teaching society to shun them, not because they couldn't be amazing, but because they are not now and probably won't be given Big Tech's stranglehold and inherent evil.
- fsloth 1y ago
  Apps are the result of darwinian competition for engagement in a user base of billions. It’s a horrible way to optimize technology for addictiveness. Not sure if there is a fix for that.
- CivBase 1y ago
  Counter point: Materals which are needed/useful for education should be provided by the school and used at the teacher's discretion under their supervision. A personal smartphone shouldn't have any place in classroom activities since it is an obvious distraction and not equally accessible to all students.
- shayway 1y ago
  Smartphones were just starting to be common right around the time I hit middle and high school. Teachers let us use them whenever we wanted, more or less, but if there was something we were supposed to be doing, we were only allowed to use them for educational purposes. We were often encouraged to use them, in fact. If there was ever a question someone asked that the teachers couldn't answer, or they heard an argument between students about something that could be solved by looking up hard data, they would invite us to take out our phones and look it up. One of the teachers would occasionally make little websites and apps related to whatever we were learning at the time. Sometimes we were shown interesting blog posts, educational youtube videos (before it was an industry), personal sites from people who make things. It was reinforced again and again that they were for discovery first, creation second, and anything else third. I feel very lucky for that to be how I learned to interact with them. The fact that we have magic machines that can answer any question in our pocket, that can take photos and connect us to people and teach us languages, yet we've corrupted them to the point that people are willingly giving them up and banning them from educational settings, is one of the greatest failings of modern society in my view. Or rather, an indication of even deeper and more troubling problems.
nabla9 1y ago
It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone the protection of property, which also applies to students' phones. Restricting the use of mobile devices must be considered from the perspective of freedom of speech and the protection of a phone call or other confidential message. Section 12 from Finnish constitution: ----- Section 12 - Freedom of expression and right of access to information Everyone has the freedom of expression. Freedom of expression entails the right to express, disseminate and receive information, opinions and other communications without prior prevention by anyone. More detailed provisions on the exercise of the freedom of expression are laid down by an Act. Provisions on restrictions relating to pictorial programmes that are necessary for the protection of children may be laid down by an Act. Documents and recordings in the possession of the authorities are public, unless their publication has for compelling reasons been specifically restricted by an Act. Everyone has the right of access to public documents and recordings. ----- See also: Convention on the Rights of the Child https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-rights-child https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/... Wikpedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_th...
- Gormo 1y ago
  > It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.
  - chithanh 1y ago
    The keyword here is just. They cannot simply order children to comply, there has to be same legal basis like there has to be for ordering an adult to comply.
the_mitsuhiko 1y ago
Austria did too.
- haunter 1y ago
  Hungary too
- clydethefrog 1y ago
  Netherlands too. They are also banned during breaks. Schools where the ban had been implemented reported more concentration of students in class and more social interaction between students. Various studies show that contacts between students are returning, now that they are no longer hunched over their phones. There is much more conversation and social contact. Dutch Government research: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/rapporten/2024/07/12/monitoring-landelijke-afspraak-mobiele-telefoons-en-andere-devices-in-de-klas https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/rapporten/2024/07/12...
perlgeek 1y ago
At my daughters' school, the rules are roughly: * no phones during classes or during breaks (with the exception of lunch break, I think) * phone can be allowed by teachers for a particular class and purpose * if a student uses a phone while it's not allowed, the phone will be confiscated until the end of the school day * (there might be a more severe rule for repeat offenders) IMHO this strikes a pretty good balance between allowing phones for coordinating transit to school and back home, and no distraction in the class room.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  In Finland the confiscation is the problem (or rather WAS the problem, until this law). Children are people, people have specific rights. A teacher is just a random person as far as the law is concerned and can't take someone's phone away any more than an usher in a movie theatre can take someone's phone for being disruptive.
  - CivBase 1y ago
    By that argument, it sounds like schools in Finland have zero authority. How does punishment work? What's stopping a kid from going anywhere they want at any time or doing litterally anything that isn't outright illegal? If Finnish children have the same rights as adults, does that mean the children are also subject to the same legal punishment as adults? Can a Finnish child be jailed or fined for the likes of theft, assault, or battery?
    - sureIy 1y ago
      I don't know, but I would hope that it works because parents are expected to teach their children to behave. Also just because they can't take their phone or punish them, it doesn't mean that they can't suspend students or fail them.
      - CivBase 1y ago
        > I don't know, but I would hope that it works because parents are expected to teach their children to behave. Unfortunately that hasn't proven to be a reliable method here in the United States :( > Also just because they can't take their phone or punish them, it doesn't mean that they can't suspend students or fail them. I'm not a teacher but my wife is so I can only speak to what I've heard from her. And by her accounts, out-of-school suspention is ineffective because you're essentially rewarding misbehaving children with not having to come to school. She also isn't allowed to lower a student's grade for behavioral issues. Their grade is supposed to be purely a reflection of how well the know the material defined by the curriculum.
nutanc 1y ago
We all know the advantages of smartphones. What we dont know yet are the harmful effects of the smartphones on young minds. I just hope we are not stunting the mental growth of our kids just because we dont know the harmful effects. Like how smoking was allowed everywhere initially and now we ban it everywhere.
0xCafeBabee 1y ago
Great to see Finland taking a balanced approach to phone use in schools - keeping the focus on learning while still being practical about when phones are actually needed!
throw7 1y ago
NY just banned cellphones in schools. I don't know the exact details but its being called "bell to bell" presumably the whole day.
macote 1y ago
A committee in Quebec also recommends a full ban on cellphones and electronic devices at schools. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/commission-cellphones-school-quebec-1.7515808 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/commission-cellphone...
ohgr 1y ago
They did this at my kids school. Then issued them all with iPads which half the software they need to use doesn’t work properly on iPad size devices. Total fuck up.
smckk 1y ago
Social media is lipstick on a pig. There's verbal and physical abuse, exclusion, name-calling, stalking and all sorts of inhumane behaviour towards each other in real life. Social media just digitizes that and is a reflection of the ugly parts of the socializing aspect of human life. The ~10% good that comes from keeping in touch with people, for example, is not really worth it especially for kids. Whatever you do you are going to have to deal with the negative aspects of society in-person, and we've all kind of accepted that. Social media just doubles the problem.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  The difference is that physical abuse, name-calling and stalking require the people to be actually present and risk (physical) consequences. When done from the safety of one's own couch at home, surrounded by family, there are no consequences to name-calling, cyber-stalking or spreading rumours about someone.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
intellectronica 1y ago
If I were a Finnish child I would start working hard on getting my parents to emigrate, or at least send me on an extended exchange program to a country where I can still use modern tech to connect to the global network, meet other likeminded people, have access to all of humanity's knowledge, and learn any subject I'm interested in.
- akie 1y ago
  What a ridiculous reply. We're talking about banning smartphones during *class time*. There's nothing here that warrants leaving the country. Jeez.
  - intellectronica 1y ago
    Classes in Finland are not so much better than anywhere else that they make giving up the internet worthwhile. Children learn more in 15 minutes on their iphone than they do in 15 hours at school.
    - grg0 1y ago
      And you know this because...?
- badc0ffee 1y ago
  Would you really need to be doing that during school hours though? When would you even have time to do any of that anyway, outside of your lunch break? That's setting aside that "have access to all of humanity's knowledge, and learn any subject I'm interested in" could mean Wikipedia, or it could mean short-form, attention-wrecking candy on Tiktok.
onefeduk21 1y ago
[dead]
nsxwolf 1y ago
I wonder how many people don't realize there are classrooms all over the United States where kids literally play on their smartphones and text all through class and don't pay any attention at all. They do F work and it gets graded on a curve up to a C. The teachers are powerless to do anything about it.
- squigz 1y ago
  Do you think that banning smartphones - or attempting to - will fix any of that?
  - nsxwolf 1y ago
    It will absolutely stop the playing of video games in class while the teacher is attempting to teach.
- hashstring 1y ago
  There was this TikTok internal memo that stated something like: US teenagers are the ideal target market for TikTok, because they (get to) spend so much of their time on that app.
barotalomey 1y ago
Awesome, finally!
CommenterPerson 1y ago
Lots of nitpicking in the comments. Personally I support this law. Some years ago Finland made some changes to their educational system, that resulted in highly improved outcomes. Looks like they're trying out a good idea here also.
dvngnt_ 1y ago
Bringing my first android phone to school in high school helped me learn linux when i was into rooting. I don't think phones are the problem. I think it's more social media. Schools find it less effort to ban phones vs how to work with them. The nanny state is a troubling trend
- CYR1X 1y ago
  Phone bans in schools have been going on for 20 years. Yeah we didn't have smart phones back then, but with tactile buttons kids would text each other without even looking at their phone and keeping it in their pocket. Before phones kids were playing snake on their TI-83 when they weren't in math class. At it's core these devices are just a distraction when they're supposed to be paying attention.
  - dvngnt_ 1y ago
    We've have smart phones since ~2007 and you're right students did use t9, they could also be doodling in class not paying attention. I find it weird that all of these schools have contracts with https://www.overyondr.com/phone-locking-pouch https://www.overyondr.com/phone-locking-pouch. It's one thing to discipline a student who has their phone out it's another thing to compel all students to give up their own devices or install managing software used to spy on kids. This isn't really about helping them succeed. It's more about training them to accept being watched and controlled all the time. Instead of teaching kids how to manage their attention or use technology responsibly, we're teaching them that they don’t own their time, their devices, or even their personal space during the school day.
amai 1y ago
What about Smartwatches?
malkia 1y ago
Not sure about other US school districts, but LAUSD (Los Angeles) had this going for several weeks now - https://abc7.com/post/los-angeles-unified-school-district-cellphone-ban-take-effect-tuesday-includes-smartwatches-smart-glasses/15924439/#:~:text=The%20district's%20board%20passed%20a,and%20concentration%20in%20the%20classroom. https://abc7.com/post/los-angeles-unified-school-district-ce...
garou 1y ago
Brazil ahead of Finland: https://apnews.com/article/brazil-bill-phones-schools-restrictions-20b95516d6e2a0f63ebb642defba964b https://apnews.com/article/brazil-bill-phones-schools-restri... https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2025-02-07/new-law-in-brazil-is-making-students-put-away-their-cellphones-at-school https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2025-02-07/new-la...
lacoolj 1y ago
FINALLY
hashstring 1y ago
Thumbs up. I think this is a step in the right direction. No matter how you flip it, net result is negative. These apps are like crack, and it’s morally right to protect developing brains from that.
creatonez 1y ago
Why does this unpopular campaign get to spam to Hacker News? It's pretty obvious someone is coordinating these posts to influence this community. Posts and comments that gesture to the idea of banning kids and teens from using phones seem to get rapidfire posted all day long, with little mention of the lack of expert consensus on the topic, or anything that suggests phone bans actually hurt social wellbeing.
- GreenWatermelon 1y ago
  Or maybe technically-adept people are very aware of the dangers of the addiction rectangle? Pretty sure a lot of people would like to reduce the reach of brainrot-boxes on our society. This garbage is worse than cigarettes for kids.

790 points by freetonik 1y ago

Where they not already? In America they started off banned as soon as kids started getting them in the early 00s, but then some years later the bans became unenforced or even undone because, apparently, parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) But that shouldn't apply in Finland at all.

Hamuko 1y ago
At least in my time they were pretty much banned. You could have your phone on you but if you got caught using it during class, they'd just confiscate it. Of course, some exceptions apply like if a teacher informed of some upcoming event, you could pull up your phone and set it in your calendar without getting chewed out. Not sure what's happened since.
- technothrasher 1y ago
  At my son's school, they have to put the cell phones into the "phone hotel" at the beginning of the day, and they pick them back up at the end. But it is performance only, really. If the kid really wants a cell phone, they'll just put an old one in the phone hotel and keep their real one hidden in their bag. But even that isn't really done all that much, as they're required to have laptops for class and they can do anything social and/or distracting they'd want to do on the phone on the laptop instead.
- cudder 1y ago
  I went to primary school in 1999-2008 and it was the same for me. After that I started my secondary education in business school in 2008 and there were basically zero restrictions on smartphone use. Smartphones probably became ubiquitous in primary school after that too, but this law seems to also target secondary schools which sounds stricter than it used to be.
n4r9 1y ago
School shootings do happen in Finland, although they're rarer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viertola_school_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viertola_school_shooting
- jajko 1y ago
  And thats no reason to let kids do empty highly addictive activity unhinged instead of getting prepared for later life. Emotional reactions != smart ones.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - pandemic_region 1y ago
      Are you implying we should school them the Spartan way rather then? Would that prepare them for life in a better way? Or, what do you think would be valuable then to do (purposely not saying learn) during those twelve years?
      - constantcrying 1y ago
        I am not implying anything. >Or, what do you think would be valuable then to do (purposely not saying learn) during those twelve years? I think that this is different between children. Actually I think it could be extremely valuable to learn, but then the child's activities should actually focus on learning effectively. And sitting in a classroom with children not that interested in learning and a teacher trying to find some middle ground is not helping that. Personally I believe that with a good school system I would have been perfectly fine doing university courses at 16 and a good school system would have encouraged me to accomplish exactly that.
    - ndr42 1y ago
      I've read the same comment from you as a response to three different comments. I will just answer here: "There is substantial evidence to suggest that education influences intelligence.[3]" (From Wikipedia) [3] Baltes, P., & Reinert, G. (1969). Cohort effects in cognitive development in children as revealed by cross sectional sequences. Developmental Psychology, 1, 169-177.
CivBase 1y ago
> parents said that their kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) It really is a dumb argument. Your primary concern in a school shooting should be getting out safely not messing around with your phone. One more 911 call won't make police any more effective. The phone isn't making you any safer. If anything, it's a distraction putting you in danger. Once you've made it to safety, you won't have any trouble contacting your parents whether or not you have a smartphone.
DocTomoe 1y ago
> kids needed phones because school shooters (which is a dumb argument.) Considering the US is a country where two dozen cops stay out of a school with an active school shooter until they have run out of bullets ... yeah, it is. No-one wants to hear the local TV station run the dying screams of their children. Better not give them phones so they can call for help (or give the cops information, which would be pointless to begin with).

PeterStuer 1y ago

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

constantcrying 1y ago
Is that the aim of schools? It certainly did not appear to me that way, here in Germany. There was a lot of time spend sitting in a room and "learning", yet I basically learned nothing. For the other things you described I do not think they were ever considered. All around school was a giant waste of time.
- bnegreve 1y ago
  Surely reading/writing are useful skills that most people did not have before school was mandatory.
  - constantcrying 1y ago
    I did not take me twelve years to learn to read and write. What an awful excuse. What made me good at reading was reading books outside of school. In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school.
    - moooo99 1y ago
      > In a single semester of university I learned more than in 12 years of school. I learned more in a single year on the job than I did in 3 years of university. That doesn’t make university useless
    - rad_gruchalski 1y ago
      No, I don’t think that’s true. The 12 years of the pre-uni education set you up for being a member of society. You don’t see it because it became a part of you. You also learned to read, write, all basic math, geography, … The uni taught you more real-world expected skills but I‘m certain you learned more before uni.

gostsamo 1y ago

Kids should not have access to anything more complex than a Nokia with a flashlight.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
TI calculator with Doom?
abofh 1y ago
Kids have access to what their parents give them - I suspect most parents shouldn't be trusted with a flashlight or a nokia.

constantcrying 1y ago

[flagged]

sofixa 1y ago
> What is the point of school? Why do children have to spend 12 years of their lives learning basically nothing and coming out anything but well formed adults. So that every kid has a uniform and common base of knowledge that helps them understand the world around them, and enables them to go further by learning more or starting to work. With no mandatory schooling, most kids would be illiterate and ignorant. A lot of countries, even developed ones, already struggle with the second (antivaxers, flat earthers, voting for dumb populists, etc.). Which indicates the need to improve, not remove. If there was no schooling, how would kids becoming young adults even know what they're interested in to do? Would they know that e.g. chemistry or physics are things that exist if nobody explained the basics to them? Or would they just continue doing what their parents did, condemning them to a vicious cycle and almost zero social mobility? From history, the latter.
- constantcrying 1y ago
  >So that every kid has a uniform and common base of knowledge that helps them understand the world around them, and enables them to go further by learning more or starting to work. Oh, I must have missed that class.
  - tekla 1y ago
    I'm guessing you skipped it
    - constantcrying 1y ago
      I "skipped" like two days in my entire school life by pretending to be sick. If that was taught in those two days I will obviously apologize.
- graemep 1y ago

bcraven 1y ago

I'd recommend watching Social Studies to get an idea of what phone use in schools can look like. It's filmed in LA but I'm sure can be applied generally. The amount of anxiety on show is really saddening. https://thetvdb.com/series/social-studies-452444 https://thetvdb.com/series/social-studies-452444

geremiiah 1y ago

Is it possible to fight Internet addiction without banning stuff? While it helps to ban smartphones during school, it won't stop these kids from logging on for 5 to 7 hrs after school. We need to find ways to make people (not just kids) more resilient to Internet addiction without resorting to widespread bans, which are both hard to implement, unlikely to keep people away long term and dangerous for other reasons.

_flux 1y ago
Maybe it does help increasing resiliency by forcing them not use the device for the day? Whether it does that will be found during the next few years. Why is it unlikely in long term? You pose this as a question, but I find it's quite easy to say "we need to achieve this some other way" but then not having a concrete suggestion what that other way could be.
ndr42 1y ago
I do not think kids and everybody else are standing a chance against all the money that is thrown at making and keeping them addicted. So I fear if we do not want them to be addicted we have to prohibit things (it does not need to be smartphones, it could be mechanisms on these devices).
- FinnLobsien 1y ago
  Bingo. The decline of smoking wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for banning smoking in most public places and everywhere indoors, removing cigarette vending machines, etc.
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  Prohibition didn't work for booze, doesn't work for drugs. Why would you be expecting better results for this ?
  - Ekaros 1y ago
    Smoking ban in bars and restaurants seem to work. So doing same with phones in schools during lesson time does not seem unreasonable.

Kaethar 1y ago

I wonder if there's any alternatives to this that teach actual discipline when it comes to phones. Methods that actually attack the reason kids are using phones in school (boredom, social anxiety, uninterested in school etc.).

skydhash 1y ago
I remember being a kid and I wouldn’t need any reason to using smartphones at school. And we did bring banned things like walkman, gameboy, dumb phones,… And we only needed to spend 5 hours there.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
I think this would be reasonable except for all the billion dollar companies pouring their money into researching how to keep the kids on their phones. The solution supposes that there's a state of mind the child could have that would give a smaller intrinsic need for the phone and that would be that, but this falls down when there are better funded and more powerful entities than the schools and parents pushing extrinsic motivations to stay on the phone for longer and longer.
stevage 1y ago
What I hear from teachers is they are constantly bombarded by notifications. They aren't idly playing on their phones. They're constantly responding to things happening. There's seriously no alternative to banning them, and I don't even see the interest in trying.

FinnLobsien 1y ago

I'm totally in favor of this, but there's something poetic about the country of Nokia banning smartphones.

adverbly 1y ago
Is this just smartphones they are banning? Can kids still use oldschool Nokia phones?

cromulent 1y ago

Note that this means "in class" rather than "in school".

nicce 1y ago
”in school” is left for the school to decide. The can ban in breaks too.

nntwozz 1y ago

What about smartwatches? The Apple Watch is very capable, I wonder if this will become a loophole.

Hamuko 1y ago
Phones, tablets, headphones, laptops, and smartwatches according to HS. https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000011201797.html https://www.hs.fi/suomi/art-2000011201797.html

Tade0 1y ago

The main (literal) takeaway is that teachers can now confiscate phones. Over here, at the other end of the Baltic sea, there's an ongoing debate about phones in the classroom and some schools have regulations in place regarding the use of electronic devices, but these are largely toothless as otherwise they would infringe on the right to property. I graduated high school before the smartphone era, so I don't have much of a point of reference, but I'm leaning on disallowing at least Wi-Fi/mobile data - that's the largest source of distraction in my view.

esperent 1y ago
> they would infringe on the right to property. Can children bring in portable hifi systems? What about those squeaky chicken toys? Or a water pistol?
- Tade0 1y ago
  My sister's friend brought a microwave oven once and started making grilled cheese sandwiches during recess. He was told to unplug and never bring it again, but it was not confiscated. My classmate brought a super-sized calculator to class for tests, as he had a medical condition which allowed him to bring "a calculator". The buttons made a lot of noise but, again, it was not confiscated.
  - badc0ffee 1y ago
    Can you make grilled cheese in a microwave?
    - esperent 1y ago
      Probably some disgusting prepackaged microwavable "cheese" sandwiches.
      - badc0ffee 1y ago
        Turns out you're right: https://foodisstupid.substack.com/p/can-you-make-toast-in-your-microwave https://foodisstupid.substack.com/p/can-you-make-toast-in-yo... The hot pockets "crisping sleeve" makes this possible.

jampekka 1y ago

This was mostly a kind of political posturing law by a deeply unpopular government. Teachers and schools already had the authority to ban phone use in class, including that they must be put into a cabinet, and most in fact already did.

Kim_Bruning 1y ago

I deplore the fact that schools need to resort to banning phones. When I was younger I imagined a world in which computing devices would be a boon to (young) people everywhere. But many apps appear to be detrimental to people's mental health, both young and old. Possibly this can be changed. Maybe separate app stores are a solution (think f-droid)? Or maybe we need to start looking a lot harder at apps that might actually be user hostile.

asadotzler 1y ago
Computing devices could have done that except the people making them built hellscapes with black hole level gravity to sell us shit we don't need so now we have to treat computing devices like cigarettes and begin limiting their use in meaningful ways and teaching society to shun them, not because they couldn't be amazing, but because they are not now and probably won't be given Big Tech's stranglehold and inherent evil.
fsloth 1y ago
Apps are the result of darwinian competition for engagement in a user base of billions. It’s a horrible way to optimize technology for addictiveness. Not sure if there is a fix for that.
CivBase 1y ago
Counter point: Materals which are needed/useful for education should be provided by the school and used at the teacher's discretion under their supervision. A personal smartphone shouldn't have any place in classroom activities since it is an obvious distraction and not equally accessible to all students.
shayway 1y ago
Smartphones were just starting to be common right around the time I hit middle and high school. Teachers let us use them whenever we wanted, more or less, but if there was something we were supposed to be doing, we were only allowed to use them for educational purposes. We were often encouraged to use them, in fact. If there was ever a question someone asked that the teachers couldn't answer, or they heard an argument between students about something that could be solved by looking up hard data, they would invite us to take out our phones and look it up. One of the teachers would occasionally make little websites and apps related to whatever we were learning at the time. Sometimes we were shown interesting blog posts, educational youtube videos (before it was an industry), personal sites from people who make things. It was reinforced again and again that they were for discovery first, creation second, and anything else third. I feel very lucky for that to be how I learned to interact with them. The fact that we have magic machines that can answer any question in our pocket, that can take photos and connect us to people and teach us languages, yet we've corrupted them to the point that people are willingly giving them up and banning them from educational settings, is one of the greatest failings of modern society in my view. Or rather, an indication of even deeper and more troubling problems.

nabla9 1y ago

It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. Current legislation allows the teacher to tell a student to put their phone away in a pocket or backpack, for example, where it will not be a distraction. The use of phones during breaks cannot be completely banned, as students have fundamental rights. The Constitution guarantees everyone the protection of property, which also applies to students' phones. Restricting the use of mobile devices must be considered from the perspective of freedom of speech and the protection of a phone call or other confidential message. Section 12 from Finnish constitution: ----- Section 12 - Freedom of expression and right of access to information Everyone has the freedom of expression. Freedom of expression entails the right to express, disseminate and receive information, opinions and other communications without prior prevention by anyone. More detailed provisions on the exercise of the freedom of expression are laid down by an Act. Provisions on restrictions relating to pictorial programmes that are necessary for the protection of children may be laid down by an Act. Documents and recordings in the possession of the authorities are public, unless their publication has for compelling reasons been specifically restricted by an Act. Everyone has the right of access to public documents and recordings. ----- See also: Convention on the Rights of the Child https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-rights-child https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/... Wikpedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_th...

Gormo 1y ago
> It had to be a law because children are people in Finland and most Nordic countries with rights that adults just can't take away. It's a strange concept to hold that there are rights that can't be taken away, but then take them away merely by passing legislation.
- chithanh 1y ago
  The keyword here is just. They cannot simply order children to comply, there has to be same legal basis like there has to be for ordering an adult to comply.

the_mitsuhiko 1y ago

Austria did too.

haunter 1y ago
Hungary too
clydethefrog 1y ago
Netherlands too. They are also banned during breaks. Schools where the ban had been implemented reported more concentration of students in class and more social interaction between students. Various studies show that contacts between students are returning, now that they are no longer hunched over their phones. There is much more conversation and social contact. Dutch Government research: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/rapporten/2024/07/12/monitoring-landelijke-afspraak-mobiele-telefoons-en-andere-devices-in-de-klas https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/rapporten/2024/07/12...

perlgeek 1y ago

At my daughters' school, the rules are roughly: * no phones during classes or during breaks (with the exception of lunch break, I think) * phone can be allowed by teachers for a particular class and purpose * if a student uses a phone while it's not allowed, the phone will be confiscated until the end of the school day * (there might be a more severe rule for repeat offenders) IMHO this strikes a pretty good balance between allowing phones for coordinating transit to school and back home, and no distraction in the class room.

theshrike79 1y ago
In Finland the confiscation is the problem (or rather WAS the problem, until this law). Children are people, people have specific rights. A teacher is just a random person as far as the law is concerned and can't take someone's phone away any more than an usher in a movie theatre can take someone's phone for being disruptive.
- CivBase 1y ago
  By that argument, it sounds like schools in Finland have zero authority. How does punishment work? What's stopping a kid from going anywhere they want at any time or doing litterally anything that isn't outright illegal? If Finnish children have the same rights as adults, does that mean the children are also subject to the same legal punishment as adults? Can a Finnish child be jailed or fined for the likes of theft, assault, or battery?
  - sureIy 1y ago
    I don't know, but I would hope that it works because parents are expected to teach their children to behave. Also just because they can't take their phone or punish them, it doesn't mean that they can't suspend students or fail them.
    - CivBase 1y ago
      > I don't know, but I would hope that it works because parents are expected to teach their children to behave. Unfortunately that hasn't proven to be a reliable method here in the United States :( > Also just because they can't take their phone or punish them, it doesn't mean that they can't suspend students or fail them. I'm not a teacher but my wife is so I can only speak to what I've heard from her. And by her accounts, out-of-school suspention is ineffective because you're essentially rewarding misbehaving children with not having to come to school. She also isn't allowed to lower a student's grade for behavioral issues. Their grade is supposed to be purely a reflection of how well the know the material defined by the curriculum.

nutanc 1y ago

We all know the advantages of smartphones. What we dont know yet are the harmful effects of the smartphones on young minds. I just hope we are not stunting the mental growth of our kids just because we dont know the harmful effects. Like how smoking was allowed everywhere initially and now we ban it everywhere.

0xCafeBabee 1y ago

Great to see Finland taking a balanced approach to phone use in schools - keeping the focus on learning while still being practical about when phones are actually needed!

throw7 1y ago

NY just banned cellphones in schools. I don't know the exact details but its being called "bell to bell" presumably the whole day.

macote 1y ago

A committee in Quebec also recommends a full ban on cellphones and electronic devices at schools. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/commission-cellphones-school-quebec-1.7515808 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/commission-cellphone...

ohgr 1y ago

They did this at my kids school. Then issued them all with iPads which half the software they need to use doesn’t work properly on iPad size devices. Total fuck up.

smckk 1y ago

Social media is lipstick on a pig. There's verbal and physical abuse, exclusion, name-calling, stalking and all sorts of inhumane behaviour towards each other in real life. Social media just digitizes that and is a reflection of the ugly parts of the socializing aspect of human life. The ~10% good that comes from keeping in touch with people, for example, is not really worth it especially for kids. Whatever you do you are going to have to deal with the negative aspects of society in-person, and we've all kind of accepted that. Social media just doubles the problem.

theshrike79 1y ago
The difference is that physical abuse, name-calling and stalking require the people to be actually present and risk (physical) consequences. When done from the safety of one's own couch at home, surrounded by family, there are no consequences to name-calling, cyber-stalking or spreading rumours about someone.

deleted 1y ago

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intellectronica 1y ago

If I were a Finnish child I would start working hard on getting my parents to emigrate, or at least send me on an extended exchange program to a country where I can still use modern tech to connect to the global network, meet other likeminded people, have access to all of humanity's knowledge, and learn any subject I'm interested in.

akie 1y ago
What a ridiculous reply. We're talking about banning smartphones during *class time*. There's nothing here that warrants leaving the country. Jeez.
- intellectronica 1y ago
  Classes in Finland are not so much better than anywhere else that they make giving up the internet worthwhile. Children learn more in 15 minutes on their iphone than they do in 15 hours at school.
  - grg0 1y ago
    And you know this because...?
badc0ffee 1y ago
Would you really need to be doing that during school hours though? When would you even have time to do any of that anyway, outside of your lunch break? That's setting aside that "have access to all of humanity's knowledge, and learn any subject I'm interested in" could mean Wikipedia, or it could mean short-form, attention-wrecking candy on Tiktok.

onefeduk21 1y ago

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nsxwolf 1y ago

I wonder how many people don't realize there are classrooms all over the United States where kids literally play on their smartphones and text all through class and don't pay any attention at all. They do F work and it gets graded on a curve up to a C. The teachers are powerless to do anything about it.

squigz 1y ago
Do you think that banning smartphones - or attempting to - will fix any of that?
- nsxwolf 1y ago
  It will absolutely stop the playing of video games in class while the teacher is attempting to teach.
hashstring 1y ago
There was this TikTok internal memo that stated something like: US teenagers are the ideal target market for TikTok, because they (get to) spend so much of their time on that app.

barotalomey 1y ago

Awesome, finally!

CommenterPerson 1y ago

Lots of nitpicking in the comments. Personally I support this law. Some years ago Finland made some changes to their educational system, that resulted in highly improved outcomes. Looks like they're trying out a good idea here also.

dvngnt_ 1y ago

Bringing my first android phone to school in high school helped me learn linux when i was into rooting. I don't think phones are the problem. I think it's more social media. Schools find it less effort to ban phones vs how to work with them. The nanny state is a troubling trend

CYR1X 1y ago
Phone bans in schools have been going on for 20 years. Yeah we didn't have smart phones back then, but with tactile buttons kids would text each other without even looking at their phone and keeping it in their pocket. Before phones kids were playing snake on their TI-83 when they weren't in math class. At it's core these devices are just a distraction when they're supposed to be paying attention.
- dvngnt_ 1y ago
  We've have smart phones since ~2007 and you're right students did use t9, they could also be doodling in class not paying attention. I find it weird that all of these schools have contracts with https://www.overyondr.com/phone-locking-pouch https://www.overyondr.com/phone-locking-pouch. It's one thing to discipline a student who has their phone out it's another thing to compel all students to give up their own devices or install managing software used to spy on kids. This isn't really about helping them succeed. It's more about training them to accept being watched and controlled all the time. Instead of teaching kids how to manage their attention or use technology responsibly, we're teaching them that they don’t own their time, their devices, or even their personal space during the school day.

amai 1y ago

What about Smartwatches?

malkia 1y ago

Not sure about other US school districts, but LAUSD (Los Angeles) had this going for several weeks now - https://abc7.com/post/los-angeles-unified-school-district-cellphone-ban-take-effect-tuesday-includes-smartwatches-smart-glasses/15924439/#:~:text=The%20district's%20board%20passed%20a,and%20concentration%20in%20the%20classroom. https://abc7.com/post/los-angeles-unified-school-district-ce...

garou 1y ago

Brazil ahead of Finland: https://apnews.com/article/brazil-bill-phones-schools-restrictions-20b95516d6e2a0f63ebb642defba964b https://apnews.com/article/brazil-bill-phones-schools-restri... https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2025-02-07/new-law-in-brazil-is-making-students-put-away-their-cellphones-at-school https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2025-02-07/new-la...

lacoolj 1y ago

FINALLY

hashstring 1y ago

Thumbs up. I think this is a step in the right direction. No matter how you flip it, net result is negative. These apps are like crack, and it’s morally right to protect developing brains from that.

creatonez 1y ago

Why does this unpopular campaign get to spam to Hacker News? It's pretty obvious someone is coordinating these posts to influence this community. Posts and comments that gesture to the idea of banning kids and teens from using phones seem to get rapidfire posted all day long, with little mention of the lack of expert consensus on the topic, or anything that suggests phone bans actually hurt social wellbeing.

GreenWatermelon 1y ago
Or maybe technically-adept people are very aware of the dangers of the addiction rectangle? Pretty sure a lot of people would like to reduce the reach of brainrot-boxes on our society. This garbage is worse than cigarettes for kids.