4 ms·

> Essentially 100% of those people are making more via tips or under the table source please

bpodgursky 1y ago
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ > Nearly 8 in 10 workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2023 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving-related jobs. For many of these workers, tips may supplement the hourly wages received. (See table 4.) There's a long tail but you can start with 80% of that 1% getting tips in food service.
- eesmith 1y ago
  That's not 80%. Food preparation doesn't get tips. Fast food employees rarely get tips. Federal minimum wage for tipped workers starts at $2.13/hr. Only if tips aren't at least $5.12 does the employer have to pay more.
  - bpodgursky 1y ago
    No fast food workers are making $7.25. I'm sorry but if you think that's happening you are utterly disconnected with the real world. Mcdonalds is hiring at $15/hr and not succeeding.
    - eesmith 1y ago
      Point taken. Please tell me where these minimum wage food preparation and serving-related workers are working then. I can tell you don't live in California, where McDonalds pays a minimum of $20/hr. I can tell you don't live in West Virginia, where McDonald's averages about $10/hr. McDonalds isn't the only fast food place.
      - bpodgursky 1y ago
        ? They are waiters at non-fast-food restaurants and bars who make a nominal $2.50/hr and take most of their income in tips. I was very clear about this. I don't understand what's confusing.
        eesmith 1y ago
        Of those nearly 8 in 10 workers, how many are in tipped positions?
        bpodgursky 1y ago
        https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ 539,000/869,000 are food service employees under minimum wage. Payment under min wage is only legal if they net above min wage after tips.
        eesmith 1y ago
        There's a fair bit of caveats in that report: > The estimates of workers paid at or below the federal minimum wage are based solely on the hourly wage that respondents report (which does not include overtime pay, tips, or commissions). It should be noted that some respondents might round their hourly earnings when answering survey questions. As a result, some workers might be reported as having hourly earnings above or below the federal minimum wage when, in fact, they earn the minimum wage. > Some workers reported as earning at or below the prevailing federal minimum wage may not in fact be covered by federal or state minimum wage laws because of exclusions and exemptions in the statutes. Thus, the presence of workers with hourly earnings below the federal minimum wage does not necessarily indicate violations of the FLSA or state statutes in cases where such standards apply. I don't think you can easily conclude that all those employees must be tipped.
        bpodgursky 1y ago
        Listen, everything is staring you in the face. You can live in whatever reality you want, but the market rate for labor is not $7.25 anywhere in the country. Nobody has any reason to tolerate federal minimum wage, and they don't. You can try to find poke holes in reports to find caveats that oh maybe there are food service employees actually rounding down and making min wage, but it doesn't change the reality that there aren't. You cannot in real life find a real person making $7.25 in a restaurant, because they aren't. Arguing about it on HN doesn't change that reality.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ > Nearly 8 in 10 workers earning the minimum wage or less in 2023 were employed in service occupations, mostly in food preparation and serving-related jobs. For many of these workers, tips may supplement the hourly wages received. (See table 4.) There's a long tail but you can start with 80% of that 1% getting tips in food service.

eesmith 1y ago
That's not 80%. Food preparation doesn't get tips. Fast food employees rarely get tips. Federal minimum wage for tipped workers starts at $2.13/hr. Only if tips aren't at least $5.12 does the employer have to pay more.
- bpodgursky 1y ago
  No fast food workers are making $7.25. I'm sorry but if you think that's happening you are utterly disconnected with the real world. Mcdonalds is hiring at $15/hr and not succeeding.
  - eesmith 1y ago
    Point taken. Please tell me where these minimum wage food preparation and serving-related workers are working then. I can tell you don't live in California, where McDonalds pays a minimum of $20/hr. I can tell you don't live in West Virginia, where McDonald's averages about $10/hr. McDonalds isn't the only fast food place.
    - bpodgursky 1y ago
      ? They are waiters at non-fast-food restaurants and bars who make a nominal $2.50/hr and take most of their income in tips. I was very clear about this. I don't understand what's confusing.
      - eesmith 1y ago
        Of those nearly 8 in 10 workers, how many are in tipped positions?
        bpodgursky 1y ago
        https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2023/ 539,000/869,000 are food service employees under minimum wage. Payment under min wage is only legal if they net above min wage after tips.
        eesmith 1y ago
        There's a fair bit of caveats in that report: > The estimates of workers paid at or below the federal minimum wage are based solely on the hourly wage that respondents report (which does not include overtime pay, tips, or commissions). It should be noted that some respondents might round their hourly earnings when answering survey questions. As a result, some workers might be reported as having hourly earnings above or below the federal minimum wage when, in fact, they earn the minimum wage. > Some workers reported as earning at or below the prevailing federal minimum wage may not in fact be covered by federal or state minimum wage laws because of exclusions and exemptions in the statutes. Thus, the presence of workers with hourly earnings below the federal minimum wage does not necessarily indicate violations of the FLSA or state statutes in cases where such standards apply. I don't think you can easily conclude that all those employees must be tipped.
        bpodgursky 1y ago
        Listen, everything is staring you in the face. You can live in whatever reality you want, but the market rate for labor is not $7.25 anywhere in the country. Nobody has any reason to tolerate federal minimum wage, and they don't. You can try to find poke holes in reports to find caveats that oh maybe there are food service employees actually rounding down and making min wage, but it doesn't change the reality that there aren't. You cannot in real life find a real person making $7.25 in a restaurant, because they aren't. Arguing about it on HN doesn't change that reality.