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Indian court orders blocking of Proton Mail
- black_13 2y ago[dead]
- iLoveOncall 2y agoAre those essentially just sham cases orchestrated by the government to justify blocking an encrypted service? It seems like such an insane over-reaction to an absolute non-issue.
- hengheng 2y agoThe built-in overreach makes it look like a structure set up in a way that encourage corruption, even though it won't happen in this case and is likely not even intended.
- shash 2y agoDoubtful. The petitioner in this case is an international architecture firm, hardly a typical group to be used for a sham case. The judgement itself isn’t out so we can’t see the court’s reasoning. This is a bit more comprehensive: https://www.barandbench.com/amp/story/news/karnataka-high-court-orders-blocking-of-proton-mail-in-india https://www.barandbench.com/amp/story/news/karnataka-high-co... and the Delhi case in which the ban is previously mentioned is only peripherally about email (the mail used by one of the parties is proton). The court makes an observation there that it should already have been banned so how is it still around.
- crop_rotation 2y agoI mean this is just absurd. > On Tuesday, the Karnataka High Court directed the Indian government to block Proton Mail, a popular email service known for its enhanced security, following a legal complaint filed by New Delhi-based M Moser Design Associates. The local firm alleged that its employees had received emails containing obscene and vulgar content sent via Proton Mail. How does this make any sense. Would the court block gmail if the same happens via gmail?. India somehow is stuck in the worst of all worlds. There is no freedom like democratic countries and there is no good government like China. To any westerners commenting, this is not same as think of the children. Government or courts mostly don't even need to give such excuses in India (max they might say to counter traitors). There is obscene amount of corruption in the country at every step from the local to the highest, and it is internalized by the citizens so much that everyone knows and nobody cares. Edit: good government above means competent government
- umvi 2y ago> there is no good government like China Here "good" means "is competent and calculating" I suppose. China's government wouldn't even blink blocking Proton Mail or any other non-Chinese technology without even giving a reason, though.
- crop_rotation 2y agoYeah that is a good tradeoff (IMHO) if it gives the citizens a tradeoff of infrastructure and social services. Indian government can jump through hoops to do the same thing but somehow can never do all that when it comes to rapid infrastructure development.
- __rito__ 2y ago> "[...] never do all that when it comes to rapid infrastructure development." India is now building 100 km highway per day. It created 24,000+ km in the last 5 years. [0] It has the second-largest road network in the world, second only to the US. [1] [0]: https://pib.gov.in/PressNoteDetails.aspx?NoteId=151963&ModuleId=3®=3&lang=1 https://pib.gov.in/PressNoteDetails.aspx?NoteId=151963&Modul... [1]: https://www.financialexpress.com/business/roadways-indias-road-to-progress-national-highway-network-grown-by-60-rising-from-91287-km-in-2014-to-146195-km-now-says-morth-3711811 https://www.financialexpress.com/business/roadways-indias-ro...
- crop_rotation 2y agoYes the current government is doing some things well and that does include road development which has been extensive.
- luckylion 2y agoIsn't 100km per day their goal while their record is at 37km on a single day? That's impressive by itself, but it's not quite the same (and those 5 year numbers would take them less than one year at that speed).
- 2y ago
- bloppe 2y agoGood publicity for proton mail
- zombiwoof 2y agoI imagine now hackers using Gmail and outlook to spam Indian courts with all sorts of nice images
- timonpimba 2y agoPlease don't give them ideas. You can not underestimate the indian court. They almost ordered to block Wikipedia.
- JCharante 2y agoDon't they already block internet access to certain regions in order to slow down the spread of information? I'm not very surprised by these actions.
- _vOv_ 2y ago[flagged]
- josefritzishere 2y agoI never wanted a Proton email address before now.
- dokyun 2y agoYou probably still don't want one, given they've been known to divulge user info to various authorities in the past.
- tristan957 2y agoHow do you expect businesses to operate if they do not comply with legal requirements? Proton is obligated to cooperate with authorities just like any other company. Proton has a distinction in that it also takes certain cases to court when it argues there is no legal justification.
- bombcar 2y agoI believe you can access proton mail at https://protonmailrmez3lotccipshtkleegetolb73fuirgj7r4o4vfu7ozyd.onion/ https://protonmailrmez3lotccipshtkleegetolb73fuirgj7r4o4vfu7... The best way to make sure they don't divulge information is to make sure they don't have information to divulge.
- ziddoap 2y agoSibling comment rightfully points out that a legitimate company will follow the laws. Proton is a legitimate company, so they follow the laws. This is detailed in their published threat model: "“The Internet is generally not anonymous, and if you are breaking Swiss law, a law-abiding company such as Proton Mail can be legally compelled to log your IP address.” This cannot be changed due to how the internet works. However, we understand this is concerning for individuals with certain threat models, which is why since 2017, we also provide an onion site for anonymous access (we are one of the only email providers that supports this)." And, in the case you are presumably talking about, Proton took it through the courts and ended up getting a ruling that "email services are not telecommunications providers. Consequently, email services are not subject to the data retention requirements imposed on telecommunications providers and are exempted from handing over certain user data in response to Swiss legal orders" Which paints an incredibly different story than the one you are trying to paint. Third, emails weren't handed over (nor were files, calendars, etc.). Which is another important distinction your comment does not mention. Why parrot half of a story disparaging one of the only large email providers that fights in court to protect the privacy of its users?
- naughtyfinch 2y agoI have been using Proton Mail and Proton VPN for over 3 years now. I firmly believe in the fundamental right of privacy online. Indian government has been taking steps like these for quite some time now. They previously asked VPN companies to log and gather every bit of information they could about their users including their name and address (effectively driving all VPN companies out of India) Sometimes, I question the meaning of freedom in India. On paper we are free citizens, but essentially we never seem to get the benefits of living in a free country.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> On paper we are free citizens, but essentially we never seem to get the benefits of living in a free country India has been mimicking Chinese and Gulf authoritarianism for a decade now. New Delhi is not truly authoritarian, but more an an elected federal government with autocratic powers, not dissimilar from the U.S. Both are mimicking China, to a certain extent, in ways good (industrial policy, moderating hyperindividualism like NIMBYism) and bad (suspending habeus, jingoism).
- astar1 2y agoIt's becoming an illiberal democracy like Turkey. Which is still a lot different than the US imo. e.g.: -After a decade of Modi rule, India now ranked 161 out of 180 in the world press freedom index: https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/media/india-elections-press-freedom-decline-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/22/media/india-elections-press-f... -Political opponents have been arrested on trumped up charges before elections: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Arvind_Kejriwal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Arvind_Kejriwal -Extrajudicial killings on Canadian soil and possible attempt on US soil before they were caught (despite extradition agreements between India and these countries): https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-government-agent-assassination-plot-sikh-nationalist-canada-rcna176048 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/india-government-agent-as... I saw an interesting interview from 50's by one of India's founders on the topic of democracy in India: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WyWUlIbcRH8 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WyWUlIbcRH8 . It seems India still has a long way to go, and the current government is reversing the trend. I really hope the west thinks long and hard about foreign investment in/free trade with India without preconditions (although these are doubtful from the US under the current administration, maybe the EU can step up). The west had this idea that opening up trade with China would make the country more democratic and free, but it had the opposite impact (the extra resources only made things worse in these areas at home and aborad, especially after Xi's takeover in 2014).
- lurkshark 2y agoThis seems ineffective on a couple levels. One is that Proton users are a population that’s much more likely to be using a VPN anyway (they even offer a VPN service themselves). Another is that unless non-blocked providers reject email from Proton this doesn’t even solve the supposed issue. An Indian user of GMail is going to still receive and view email sent by Proton, so the goal of the block isn’t even achieved.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoThe point isn’t to block Proton as much as give prosecutors and investigators another tool to either target folks or simplify prosecution. If a search reveals a Proton email address (or you can show someone using one), you’re done.
- gruez 2y ago>If a search reveals a Proton email address (or you can show someone using one), you’re done. But so far as I can tell, using protonmail isn't illegal yet?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> so far as I can tell, using protonmail isn't illegal yet? Not an expert on Indian law. But we have a court order blocking Proton Mail across India. Circumventing the block could be found tantamount to wilfully violating the court order.
- KitN 2y agono, i dont think that's how it works. if someone is using protonmail they won't be violating court's order. the order is just for protonmail to be blocked. doesn't say anything about the people using it.
- dullcrisp 2y agoYou’re done with what though? What’s the penalty for using a Proton email address? Death?
- ujkhsjkdhf234 2y agoSounds like an endorsement of Proton Mail to me.
- JCattheATM 2y agoSteps like this are all the more reason the decentralized internet has to start being given more priority. It's only a matter of time until the open internet stops being a thing.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoThat’s a pipe dream. Like „untraceable, not-controlled-by-banks, decentralised currency bitcoin“. As soon as it becomes popular, it gets regulated. Yes, it’s stupid. But it’s the reality of things.
- tremon 2y agoRegulated and decentralized are not opposing ends on the same spectrum, under a mature government one can have both.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Regulated and decentralized are not opposing ends on the same spectrum, under a mature government one can have both The point is it's regulated irrespective of the government's maturity. If it only works under a mature government, it's superfluous as a social tool. (Technology usually is.)
- a_void_sky 2y agoit is, when the regulating authority is centralised
- neilv 2y ago> [...] bitcoin“. As soon as it becomes popular, it gets regulated. And, before it gets popular and regulated, it gets overrun by criminals? Definitely the case with Bitcoin. I don't know about ProtonMail, though.
- sangeeth96 2y agoRelated but India has been on a slow march to becoming a totalitarian surveillance state. Recently, we got public confirmation on govt. having backdoor access to WhatsApp to surveil on citizens when the FM talked about the Income Tax dept. scanning WhatsApp messages to catch offenders: https://m.economictimes.com/wealth/tax/is-the-government-already-reading-your-whatsapp-chats-despite-the-governments-denial-heres-what-experts-are-saying/articleshow/119656223.cms https://m.economictimes.com/wealth/tax/is-the-government-alr...
- triknomeister 2y agoMajority Indian citizen understand this but this is a risk they are willing to take against the pervasive corruption (almost 60 years). Whether it actually leads to reduction in corruption is of course debatable.
- DaSHacka 2y agoGiving the government more unchecked power reduces corruption?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Giving the government more unchecked power reduces corruption? It's a weirdly-effective pitch! ("Drain the swamp.") The stupidity of it is compounded by the fact that it's often not about giving the government unchecked power, but a subset of the powerful unchecked power.
- crop_rotation 2y agoDo you honestly believe that ? Almost all government adjacent people (politicians/ civil servants) own land holdings way beyond their means. Everyone knows that everywhere. If the government wants to crack down on corruption there is extreme low hanging fruit that doesn't require big brother watching you.
- triknomeister 2y ago
- kburman 2y agoIndia lack technical capability to decrypt web traffic at scale or power to force companies to do it for them. Like what happened with Apple and Telegram. So this is what they come up with.
- _blk 2y ago...Just use Proton VPN to access Proton Mail ;)
- kazinator 2y agoSame old: https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/5re9s1/how_would_you_like_this_wrapped_john_jonik/ https://www.reddit.com/r/PropagandaPosters/comments/5re9s1/h...
- tianqi 2y agoThis is just the best marketing for Proton Mail. I want to sign up for one immediately after reading it.
- Ylpertnodi 2y agoSlippery sloping awa-ay: Oh, so now you support Pakistan, eh?
- sinuhe69 2y agoWhy not simply block the senders? How on earth does a high court support the demand of a single entity at the cost of the wide public, risking freedom oppression and censor of speech?
- aprilthird2021 2y agoIt's India. That's how.
- dismalpedigree 2y agoSo sending someone something offensive is grounds for banning protonmail, yet the bazillion scam call centers are somehow not a problem.
- methuselah_in 2y agoIn my recent history there was a email sent from peoton mail that there are bombs planted somewhere, which was fake obviously.
- gigatexal 2y agoThe scam call centers are in cahoots with the government. So… yeah. They’re not going anywhere.
- marcod 2y agoI found watching the trailer to The Beekeper quite therapeutic for my scammy call center dislike (it's the best part of the movie imho). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHKn-yDCE2w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHKn-yDCE2w
- gigatexal 2y agoThe whole film is good if a bit over the top.
- FirmwareBurner 2y agoA Jason Statham movie over the top?! No way!
- harvey9 2y agoI watch Jason Statham movies _because_ they're over the top.
- gigatexal 2y agoExactly. I misspoke. Praise be the name of Statham hah
- wtmt 2y agoWanted to do a TL;DR of this order: * Some company’s employees receive some inappropriate emails from a ProtonMail address. * They file complaints and approach the court to identify who sent the emails. * ProtonMail does not respond to queries about its users from foreign authorities unless the Swiss government directs it to. [1] It didn’t respond to this request. * The court decides that blocking ProtonMail in the entire country will solve this problem and such problems forever. [1]: https://proton.me/blog/india-block-proton-mail https://proton.me/blog/india-block-proton-mail (key text snippet below) > Under Swiss law, Proton is not allowed to transmit any data to foreign authorities, and we are therefore required by law to reject all requests from foreign authorities that are addressed directly to us. However, Proton is legally obligated to respond to orders from Swiss authorities, who do not tolerate illegal activities conducted through Switzerland and may assist foreign authorities in cases of illegal activity, provided they are valid under international assistance procedures and determined to be in compliance with Swiss law.
- xkcd1963 2y ago"Swiss authorities, who do not tolerate illegal activities" lol
- ssivark 2y agoThanks for the helpful summary. Unfortunately, I can’t imagine what the courts could do differently in this case. Regardless of whether Proton mail is a useful service with a principled stance, their refusal to engage under a sovereign legal system makes them simply “ungovernable” from the perspective of any sovereign government (lacking any relevant arbitration treaties). The only natural reaction seems to be to unperson them from engaging in transactions within the land. What other options does any sovereign government have when an entity simply refuses to engage? It would be a different situation if Proton mail appeared in Indian court and argued why these details must be protected (within the contours of Indian law). We take for granted the freedom to send bits anywhere in the world, and forget that we have an intricate system of decentralized governance (countries with local sovereignty, treaties, etc) in the physical world to regulate our ability to ship atoms around the world. As much as we all like our freedom, (and maybe exactly for that reason) decentralized self-governance feels like a value we ought to uphold.
- stego-tech 2y agoIf only the court order made India block all their SMTP servers from contacting Proton Mail, so I’d stop getting contract role requests thousands of miles from my home with three-week lengths and $20/hr pay to be an AWS Architect and/or Lab Assistant.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoIs there any possible action against other vendors like fastmail, etc?
- sagarpatil 2y agoFirst the ban on VPN and now Proton Mail. Facepalm.
- darthrupert 2y agoTypically it's amazingly great evidence for the high quality of a mail service that certain governments hate them.
- MartinGAugustin 2y ago[dead]
- AStonesThrow 2y agoIt intrigues me to wonder, in this day and age, what the legal meaning of "blocking" is. In any given nation with a default-open Internet, what are the ramifications of a court or legal process "blocking" a service? Protonmail is clearly more than a mere website; it's a full-featured communications platform; I'm sure it has a mobile app or at least access via the typical POP/IMAP interfaces. So, "blocking" Protonmail could mean all sorts of things: - Excise it from DNS - Demand removal from Play Store, Apple Store, other mobile OS providers - filter any IP traffic attempting to connect to service via web, IMAP, POP3 - inhibit or interfere with SMTP traffic to/from Protonmail servers, e.g. mail sending and delivery (MTA activity) - expel/prohibit colocation of physical servers, VPS systems, or middleware that may be within jurisdiction - deal legally with any physical office presence or employee contingent within the jurisdiction Now within the Great Firewall of China and other default-deny Internet services, it's not difficult to see that Protonmail could easily be blackholed. But what if you're accustomed to open access like the USA? There are so many considerations here. A simple court order to "block" an Internet service introduces quite a few layers to peel back. The USA's action against TikTok was fraught with confusion and ambiguity. Because TikTok is likewise a powerful communications service. So, tech people like us need more insight on what it means to "block" a service when a court says so!
- air3y 2y agoProbably the ISPs would be required to block a given list of domains, and they will do it at DNS requests. Porn sites and torrent sharing sites used to be blocked this way. Some ISPs wont even do it properly. A decade or more ago, when these were banned, I could circumvent it by simply moving to using encrypted dns protocol by running dnscrypt. It is rarely implemented with a zeal, unlike chinese GFW reportedly does.
- rvalue 2y agoNational security above all. Good for India
- Aleksdev 2y agoThey ban proton mail nationwide over a few offensive emails. Will they ban YouTube next if they make offensive videos about them?
- Oneword 2y ago[flagged]