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> Starting from v25 GraalVM added support for WASM GraalVM is so amazing technically, but gets so little love by HN.

gavinray 1y ago
Just to clarify -- GraalVM had support for RUNNING WASM for quite a long time. This post references the ability to compile programs via native images to WASM as an output format.
sureglymop 1y ago
When I tried it it was great but also not easy to use. Things become hard quickly, e.g. If your jvm code uses something like reflection.
- 90s_dev 1y ago
  I vaguely remember using it about 10 years ago for work, can't remember what for, or anything about that situation, but the one takeaway that I do remember is that it was neat and innovative, but ultimately not good enough to overthrow whatever we were using instead.
  - piranha 1y ago
    First release happened in 2019
    - 90s_dev 1y ago
      My memory is not great, as implied by that very comment.
      - pjmlp 1y ago
        GraalVM has evolved from another Sun Research Labs project, MaximeVM, but that was never released as a product.
- perrygeo 1y ago
  Clojure code ends up using a lot of reflection if you're doing generic Java interop. Most code destined for the GraalVM will add `(set! warn-on-reflection true)` and get repl warnings and you can set type hints accordingly.
- hocuspocus 1y ago
  Native images are just one feature though. Many people would benefit from the Graal JIT even if they don't care about anything else.
  - Capricorn2481 1y ago
    My understanding is GraalVM's JIT keeps some optimizations for the enterprise edition, and is otherwise comparable to Hotspot, with some niche exceptions. I'm not sure "many" would benefit without paying.
    - hocuspocus 1y ago
      It's been entirely free since mid-2023. Even if you care rather about native images, you probably want to use the proprietary distribution anyway.
hardwaresofton 1y ago
Does it have to do with the somewhat complicated licensing?
- amelius 1y ago
  And Oracle's army of lawyers.
- hocuspocus 1y ago
  Current licenses for Oracle JDK and GraalVM are essentially the same terms. It's pretty straightforward. https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/graal-free-license.html https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/graal-free-license...
  - hardwaresofton 1y ago
    So for shops that are already open to using the JDK they're obviously already used to the legalese/implications for companies built on this software. Everyone else in the world probably does not see this as "straight forward". So Step 0, be a lawyer.
    - hocuspocus 1y ago
      Oracle has specifically reworked its license to make terms clear after the bad press around the initial release of Oracle JDK 17: https://blogs.oracle.com/java/post/free-java-license https://blogs.oracle.com/java/post/free-java-license Any company using Java should be willing to read and understand Oracle's terms, whether they use third party OpenJDK distributions or Oracle's builds. If you're leaving significant performance gains on the table because you can't read, that's on you.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Just like most FOSS licenses, that in big corps always got through legal. In the projects where that isn't required, usually we have licence validation tooling on the CI/CD pipeline, that breaks the build if the legal wishes aren't fulfilled.
- 1y ago
pjmlp 1y ago
That is how people lose out on great technology, while worshiping the ways of 1980's server room computing.

Just to clarify -- GraalVM had support for RUNNING WASM for quite a long time. This post references the ability to compile programs via native images to WASM as an output format.

sureglymop 1y ago

When I tried it it was great but also not easy to use. Things become hard quickly, e.g. If your jvm code uses something like reflection.

90s_dev 1y ago
I vaguely remember using it about 10 years ago for work, can't remember what for, or anything about that situation, but the one takeaway that I do remember is that it was neat and innovative, but ultimately not good enough to overthrow whatever we were using instead.
- piranha 1y ago
  First release happened in 2019
  - 90s_dev 1y ago
    My memory is not great, as implied by that very comment.
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      GraalVM has evolved from another Sun Research Labs project, MaximeVM, but that was never released as a product.
perrygeo 1y ago
Clojure code ends up using a lot of reflection if you're doing generic Java interop. Most code destined for the GraalVM will add `(set! warn-on-reflection true)` and get repl warnings and you can set type hints accordingly.
hocuspocus 1y ago
Native images are just one feature though. Many people would benefit from the Graal JIT even if they don't care about anything else.
- Capricorn2481 1y ago
  My understanding is GraalVM's JIT keeps some optimizations for the enterprise edition, and is otherwise comparable to Hotspot, with some niche exceptions. I'm not sure "many" would benefit without paying.
  - hocuspocus 1y ago
    It's been entirely free since mid-2023. Even if you care rather about native images, you probably want to use the proprietary distribution anyway.

hardwaresofton 1y ago

Does it have to do with the somewhat complicated licensing?

amelius 1y ago
And Oracle's army of lawyers.
hocuspocus 1y ago
Current licenses for Oracle JDK and GraalVM are essentially the same terms. It's pretty straightforward. https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/graal-free-license.html https://www.oracle.com/downloads/licenses/graal-free-license...
- hardwaresofton 1y ago
  So for shops that are already open to using the JDK they're obviously already used to the legalese/implications for companies built on this software. Everyone else in the world probably does not see this as "straight forward". So Step 0, be a lawyer.
  - hocuspocus 1y ago
    Oracle has specifically reworked its license to make terms clear after the bad press around the initial release of Oracle JDK 17: https://blogs.oracle.com/java/post/free-java-license https://blogs.oracle.com/java/post/free-java-license Any company using Java should be willing to read and understand Oracle's terms, whether they use third party OpenJDK distributions or Oracle's builds. If you're leaving significant performance gains on the table because you can't read, that's on you.
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Just like most FOSS licenses, that in big corps always got through legal. In the projects where that isn't required, usually we have licence validation tooling on the CI/CD pipeline, that breaks the build if the legal wishes aren't fulfilled.
1y ago

pjmlp 1y ago

That is how people lose out on great technology, while worshiping the ways of 1980's server room computing.