4 ms·

Ask Ukraine how much it cost them to get rid of theirs.

KingOfCoders 2y ago
And trusting Russia and the US that they would protect Ukraine's sovereignty and "refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine".
- cyberpunk2066 2y ago
  [flagged]
api 2y ago
I am deeply saddened to say that I agree. Keep the nukes. Creating a world that results in that conclusion may go down as one of the greatest policy failures in history, and if we do in the end have an atomic war I think that's where the responsibility lay. Ultimately we have failed as a species to rise morally above "might makes right" and I think we are going to pay for that.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  > Ultimately we have failed as a species to rise morally above "might makes right" We really need to get out of the economy of scarcity. Without that, war and aggression are unavoidable.
  - ponector 2y ago
    But Ukrainian invasion is not caused by scarcity.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      Some believe it was triggered by lack of water in Crimea after Ukraine blocked the canal that brought water there. So you can argue it was caused by scarcity. You can see evidence for this as one of the first things Russia did was reopen those canals so water started flowing to Crimea again. That might not have been the only goal, but it was certainly one of the bigger reasons for the attack.
      - jeltz 2y ago
        The war started before that happened with the invasion of Crimea so that makes little to no sense. There are some people who believe almost any impossible idea. Also if it was a war about water the war would have been won now. Russia managed to achieve their aims a long time ago plus got extra land to bargain with. If that theory was true the war would have been finished a long time ago. The war in Ukraine is only a war of resources in very minor ways. It is much more about egos, nationalism and the idea that Russia deserves to be an empire.
        Jensson 2y ago
        > The war started before that happened with the invasion of Crimea That wasn't a war though, nobody called it a war between Ukraine and Russia at the time. Read news from the time, no mention of war between Ukraine and Russia. The Ukraine war was very different than Russia other aggressions, the resource scarcity likely triggered this extra aggressive behavior. You can say this resource scarcity was ultimately their fault, but a starving beast will fight very aggressively regardless whose fault it is that its starving. If the Crimean water crisis didn't happen then likely Russia would just have continued to incite rebellions and annex territory that way, and not declare a full scale war. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine.html
        tim333 2y ago
        Check out: >The Russo-Ukrainian War began in February 2014. Following Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity, Russia occupied and annexed Crimea from Ukraine. It then supported Russian paramilitaries who began a war in the eastern Donbas region... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War It not being in US news doesn't mean it didn't happen.
        gaadd33 2y ago
        Before Russia invaded Crimea was there a water crisis?
      - 2y ago
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      The risk of losing access to Sevastopol was what motivated the invasion of Crimea. In a scarcity economy we use scarcity to assign value to goods. We also game the system by manufacturing scarcity when needed (blocking export of critical minerals, manipulating supply and availability to avoid price fluctuations, and so on).
  - api 2y ago
    It would help but I don't think that would be enough. Wars and power games would continue out of either boredom or because of ideology.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      Would ideology have much sway in such a world?
- tilne 2y ago
  Do you believe our species is capable of that in the collective sense? Isn’t “might makes right” basically the law for all animals? And if you agree with that, doesn’t it follow that to “rise morally above” that would require somehow transcending the limitations imposed by our biological reality?
  - api 2y ago
    > transcending the limitations imposed by our biological reality? IMHO that's almost the definition of civilization.
    - tilne 2y ago
      I agree somewhat at the collective level. I don’t think that applies as much at the individual level though.
      - api 2y ago
        Why wouldn’t it?
        tilne 2y ago
        Why would it?
- snapplebobapple 2y ago
  We havent failed. People who think that is going away have failed to realize how there is a genetic component to personality that means it is functionally never going away. Instead you recognize violence is the basis of all power and make policy to shape that violence into rational, personal freedom and free market supporting institutions. Its what the american project has basically been at its base (partially unconaciously)up until butt hurt marxists started ruining it with what they think reality should be rather than with ways to make the reality that is better.
the_snooze 2y ago
I see this talking point a lot, and I feel it requires a bit more nuance. Those bombs were Ukraine's in the same sense that the bombs in Minot AFB are North Dakota's. If the US were to suddenly fall apart (as the USSR did), North Dakota wouldn't suddenly become a nuclear power just because the bombs are physically stationed there. They could use them to jump-start a nuclear program, but those are otherwise orphaned bombs with no one having immediate means to control them.
- wiseowise 2y ago
  Ukraine was pretty much military factory of the USSR. Do you seriously believe they couldn’t decode and take control of the nukes? Russia even threatened invasion if Ukraine started messing with those nukes.
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  Ukraine built those bombs/rockets. Replacing control electronics with ones under their control would have been much faster and cheaper than to build new ones from scratch.
  - an_guy 2y ago
    USSR built those bombs and most of the people who worked on it moved to Russia.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
disambiguation 2y ago
This is a tough one, a real life trolley problem. To think there is an alternate version of history where this war is being fought with nukes right now.

And trusting Russia and the US that they would protect Ukraine's sovereignty and "refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine".

cyberpunk2066 2y ago
[flagged]

api 2y ago

I am deeply saddened to say that I agree. Keep the nukes. Creating a world that results in that conclusion may go down as one of the greatest policy failures in history, and if we do in the end have an atomic war I think that's where the responsibility lay. Ultimately we have failed as a species to rise morally above "might makes right" and I think we are going to pay for that.

rbanffy 2y ago
> Ultimately we have failed as a species to rise morally above "might makes right" We really need to get out of the economy of scarcity. Without that, war and aggression are unavoidable.
- ponector 2y ago
  But Ukrainian invasion is not caused by scarcity.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Some believe it was triggered by lack of water in Crimea after Ukraine blocked the canal that brought water there. So you can argue it was caused by scarcity. You can see evidence for this as one of the first things Russia did was reopen those canals so water started flowing to Crimea again. That might not have been the only goal, but it was certainly one of the bigger reasons for the attack.
    - jeltz 2y ago
      The war started before that happened with the invasion of Crimea so that makes little to no sense. There are some people who believe almost any impossible idea. Also if it was a war about water the war would have been won now. Russia managed to achieve their aims a long time ago plus got extra land to bargain with. If that theory was true the war would have been finished a long time ago. The war in Ukraine is only a war of resources in very minor ways. It is much more about egos, nationalism and the idea that Russia deserves to be an empire.
      - Jensson 2y ago
        > The war started before that happened with the invasion of Crimea That wasn't a war though, nobody called it a war between Ukraine and Russia at the time. Read news from the time, no mention of war between Ukraine and Russia. The Ukraine war was very different than Russia other aggressions, the resource scarcity likely triggered this extra aggressive behavior. You can say this resource scarcity was ultimately their fault, but a starving beast will fight very aggressively regardless whose fault it is that its starving. If the Crimean water crisis didn't happen then likely Russia would just have continued to incite rebellions and annex territory that way, and not declare a full scale war. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/19/world/europe/ukraine.html
        tim333 2y ago
        Check out: >The Russo-Ukrainian War began in February 2014. Following Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity, Russia occupied and annexed Crimea from Ukraine. It then supported Russian paramilitaries who began a war in the eastern Donbas region... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War It not being in US news doesn't mean it didn't happen.
        gaadd33 2y ago
        Before Russia invaded Crimea was there a water crisis?
    - 2y ago
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    The risk of losing access to Sevastopol was what motivated the invasion of Crimea. In a scarcity economy we use scarcity to assign value to goods. We also game the system by manufacturing scarcity when needed (blocking export of critical minerals, manipulating supply and availability to avoid price fluctuations, and so on).
- api 2y ago
  It would help but I don't think that would be enough. Wars and power games would continue out of either boredom or because of ideology.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    Would ideology have much sway in such a world?
tilne 2y ago
Do you believe our species is capable of that in the collective sense? Isn’t “might makes right” basically the law for all animals? And if you agree with that, doesn’t it follow that to “rise morally above” that would require somehow transcending the limitations imposed by our biological reality?
- api 2y ago
  > transcending the limitations imposed by our biological reality? IMHO that's almost the definition of civilization.
  - tilne 2y ago
    I agree somewhat at the collective level. I don’t think that applies as much at the individual level though.
    - api 2y ago
      Why wouldn’t it?
      - tilne 2y ago
        Why would it?
snapplebobapple 2y ago
We havent failed. People who think that is going away have failed to realize how there is a genetic component to personality that means it is functionally never going away. Instead you recognize violence is the basis of all power and make policy to shape that violence into rational, personal freedom and free market supporting institutions. Its what the american project has basically been at its base (partially unconaciously)up until butt hurt marxists started ruining it with what they think reality should be rather than with ways to make the reality that is better.

the_snooze 2y ago

I see this talking point a lot, and I feel it requires a bit more nuance. Those bombs were Ukraine's in the same sense that the bombs in Minot AFB are North Dakota's. If the US were to suddenly fall apart (as the USSR did), North Dakota wouldn't suddenly become a nuclear power just because the bombs are physically stationed there. They could use them to jump-start a nuclear program, but those are otherwise orphaned bombs with no one having immediate means to control them.

wiseowise 2y ago
Ukraine was pretty much military factory of the USSR. Do you seriously believe they couldn’t decode and take control of the nukes? Russia even threatened invasion if Ukraine started messing with those nukes.
TiredOfLife 2y ago
Ukraine built those bombs/rockets. Replacing control electronics with ones under their control would have been much faster and cheaper than to build new ones from scratch.
- an_guy 2y ago
  USSR built those bombs and most of the people who worked on it moved to Russia.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

disambiguation 2y ago

This is a tough one, a real life trolley problem. To think there is an alternate version of history where this war is being fought with nukes right now.