36 ms·

Tipping: How Gratuity Replaced Fair Wages in U.S. Restaurants

90 points by madpen 1y ago

tptacek 1y ago
HN threads on tipping turn me into the Joker. This stuff is so hard for me to read. Yes, you can trace tipping back to demeaning pre-enlightenment service worker dynamics. But you can do that with almost anything. Talk to a socialist Google worker about the morality of their $350k comp package. As I have learned the hard way trying to convince a local polity that zoning is fundamentally racist (it is), to confront a system you have to address what it is today, not what it was historically. And yes, tipping is widely abused, especially in the fast-casual and low-mid casual segments of the market. You want to set a N0% plus-up over minimum wage on front of the house jobs? I'm here for it. We're going to put a lot of restaurants out of business together with this plan --- the most abusive sectors of the restaurant business operate on the knife's edge of profitability --- but maybe that's for the best. In high-end casual and fine dining, though, tipping has nothing to do with master-serf relationships, or really any kind of exploitation. A fine dining server's comp package looks a lot like that of a sales account manager: an untenably low base with a variable comp package on top. The reasons are the same in both cases: because of principal-agent problems. A flat salary for servers (the "living wage" system) breaks incentives: if you're going to make the same money whether the restaurant is packed or empty, why would you ever want to work a Friday? Put differently: tipping gives service staff exposure to the gross upside of the business, and aligns that exposure to the server's own agency in the business --- managing the customer relationship, monitoring the products being delivered from the back of the house. This is part of the reason that expert servers quit when fine dining restaurants try to flip to no-tipping models. People complain about how manipulative or stressful tipping is. I think that's pure applesauce. Divide the check by 10 and multiply by two. Or double the sales tax. Your check probably has the 15-20% line figured out for you already. You go into an American restaurant knowing you're on the hook for the tip, like adults in America have done for generations. If it's a scam to fool you into thinking prices are lower than they are, we've all had more than enough time to metabolize and work around it. Tipping subsidizes owners. But everything you spend in a restaurant subsidizes owners. You're where all the revenue in this industry comes from. This not the system I would design if I was the Pope of Chili Town. But it's not the moral calamity nerds like us make it out to be, either.
- rustcleaner 1y ago
  Tie pay to performance then. As for Fridays, start a baserate bidding market for your workers and the lowest asks win the given shift. If pay for the shift scales with number of plates served (without tips) AND Fridays pay more because the lowest ask on Fridays is typically higher than on other days, then it should not be much different than now except your customers don't feel mugged. Just ban customer tipping! Probably best to tie this all together in a "Lowest listed price is final price" law that includes a hotline for customers to report businesses/staff who retaliate over no tipping. Mainly it's so the agency can send secret shoppers of their own to test for social retaliations/pressure.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    You could devise some contraption ("baserate bidding market") that is +/- 5% more {fair, transparent, predictable} than tipping, in the same way that you could improve or degrade sales compensation by eliminating commissions, yes.
briandear 1y ago
> However, even if a tipped worker provides excellent service, studies have shown that certain biases can affect tipping, especially against women and women of color. Tipping creates a dining system where people of color, elders, women, and those of foreign descent get worse service. Because those groups typically tip less or not at all. Although I never found that to be true with women. And “people of color” in the article really means black people. Asians and Hispanics seem to tip normally in my experience. And for those thinking “omg how racist” — you clearly never worked in the restaurant business in the United States before. Here is an interesting thread about black people and tipping: https://www.reddit.com/r/Serverlife/s/MGkkDmZgYq https://www.reddit.com/r/Serverlife/s/MGkkDmZgYq
- n4r9 1y ago
  One of the linked studies has the following (emphasis mine): > Server race has also been shown to affect tipping. Black cab drivers receive smaller tips on average than do white cab drivers ... This is true regardless of the race of the tipper – both black and white tippers give white drivers larger tips than black drivers https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/Business_Considerations_Tipping_final.pdf https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/Busines... (p19) That's about cab drivers but I don't see why the case would be very different in restaurants.
- disantlor 1y ago
  i wouldn’t say this reddit thread clearly makes the point you think it does
- cycrutchfield 1y ago
  You sure you want to post your racist generalizations on a public forum with your real name attached to it?
edent 1y ago
The service in most American restaurants isn't good; it is obsequious. It is disturbing how many Americans don't notice this.
- eru 1y ago
  Still better than being ignored like eg can often happen in German restaurants.
  - dewey 1y ago
    Sounds like you need to pick better places.
    - eru 1y ago
      I did. I moved to Singapore. German service (not just in restaurants) is proverbially bad, even among Germans. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste
  - KingOfCoders 1y ago
    I'd guess it depends where you live in Germany. Berlin Mitte: Agree, yes, atrocious service, many arrogant people, no credit cards because of tax fraud (Lived the startup life in Berlin for 20 years, "Monsieur Vuong" was IMHO the worst for service and arrogance - but then there is "Il Pane e le Rose", lovely people, went there for 20 years, or "Restorani Tbilisi", my favorite restaurant in Berlin, most excellent food and service). Nice city somewhere else: No. Here in Stralsund we go to 5 restaurants regularly. All are nice, have excellent service, people are friendly, prices are fair (But I so miss Georgian food).
    - dm270 1y ago
      I agree with you. Haven’t had very bad experience with service. I for example am perfectly ok with flagging down a waiter to order extra drinks. The US make me feel uncomfortable with their almost obnoxious wait staff asking you 100 times if everything is ok…but hell breaks loose if you’re done with your meal and you just wanna sit with your buddies and have one more drink or finish your beer. Then wait staff manages to make you feel very uncomfortable in my opinion. Much worse than default German service.
Stratoscope 1y ago
(deleted)
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  I am confused about what you consider “chintzy”. Pre-tax subtotal has always been my starting point for calculating the gratuity. In fact, if you’re ordering drinks with lunch, I was taught to deduct the bar total as well, and go by food served. 15% a bog standard percentage and completely fair. Especially if it were “many years ago”. I have taken note that many receipt printers now try to “cheat” us by displaying tip calculations on the after-tax. Even worse, once they run your card, they may withhold that itemized receipt, so you have no information but the grand total! It’s really unfair. And don’t forget, a rich woman does not become wealthy based on her generosity. Think about it. It’s about how much she can hold onto.
- rishav_sharan 1y ago
  I think the lady was right here. Tipping is what you have today, because you all support it fully
- eru 1y ago
  You can just not tip. If you feel guilty, give the amount you save to any of the effective charities suggested by GiveWell.
- pixelatedindex 1y ago
  To be fair, tipping on top of sales tax never made sense. Tip is always calculated from a pre-tax amount. And somehow the tip percentage has gone up - when I was young 15% was the norm. Precovid it was 18%. Now it’s 20%? Why is this being inflated? The prices have already gone up, so even at 15% the tip has ballooned. I also don’t understand why we have to tip waitstaff that is paid minimum wage - places like WA, CA, etc cannot have wage that is lower than the state minimum wage. I’ve worked many a retail job and have had to deal with rude customers, clean up after their mess, etc. Why pay more just because someone told me what the special is and brought me the food? Isn’t that what their job is? I don’t understand it and I just don’t eat at sit down places anymore. Take out, counter service, or bust.
mjevans 1y ago
1) I want all restaurant workers to just get a fair proper wage... 2) So that tipping is no longer subsidizing the restaurant owners. 3) Also, FFS, when demand is inelastic, the only way to lower prices is MORE SUPPLY (where it's needed). Build the housing, do not stop, just keep going until after we all die.
- tptacek 1y ago
  Tipping doesn't subsidize the restaurant owners.
  - n4r9 1y ago
    I'm guessing they mean that without tipping, more of the restaurant's revenue would go towards wages.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      Sure, but the prices would also be commensurately higher.
      - n4r9 1y ago
        Does that make it not a subsidy? We say that the US govt subsidises oil companies even though petrol prices would be higher if they stopped.
      - tossandthrow 1y ago
        Thisnis one of these counter arguments you often hear in favor of low wages in general. And it is a horrendous argument. You are literally actively arguing for greater inequality. If a company can not cover their costs with their revenue, then they need to cease to exists. And ofcause they need to pay fair market wages.
        scarface_74 1y ago
        [flagged]
shmerl 1y ago
Really bad practice. Prices should be flat without any expected extra payments and workers should be paid fair wages.
- amrocha 1y ago
  Workers are already paid fair wages. The employer needs to ensure workers make minimum wage at minimum.
vldmrs 1y ago
As a European, I can safely say that tipping in American restaurants is one of the most unusual things I remember about America. The amount of tips is huge and they are demanded of you everywhere
- tptacek 1y ago
  Correct. They are demanded of you everywhere.
  - shermantanktop 1y ago
    And European tourists are notorious for not tipping, because they have not taken the time to understand our bizarre customs which we don’t even like. Combine that with the fact that tourists everywhere are more difficult and time-consuming to deal with and it’s a recipe for resentment. Just last week I saw a group of Spanish visitors to NYC create a confusing maelstrom of orders at a coffee shop and then override the tip to zero, all while shouting across the room to each other.
    - scarface_74 1y ago
      I frequent a bar in a tourist area with many international tourists. They finally just by default added an 18% service charge and a line for an additional tip. The servers and bartenders are always very explicit about the tip being included. This feels much more fair to me.
      - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
        Here in the UK, it's common for a "service charge" to be added to bills which is the equivalent of a tip, but considered mandatory for large groups. I think the next step is to just roll the tips/service charge into the food prices and thus not be pushing employee wage issues onto customers.
      - nasmorn 1y ago
        That is simply a markup and should be reflected in the price. Euro style tipping is annoying enough but percentages in the US are huge. It is really not an afterthought to the whole transaction. Imagine you bought a car and the dealers profit would be totally optional for you to decide. The situation is frankly ludicrous
janalsncm 1y ago
I hate tipping. The last think I want to do after eating is math. And don’t get me started on the inefficient payment ritual we have to endure: flag down the waiter for the check, wait for the check, wait for them to take your cc, wait for them to ring it up and bring it back, then do some math. Unnecessary. That said, minimum wage is minimum wage. If an employee doesn’t make that up in tips, the law is that the restaurant needs to make up the difference. So it’s a complete non sequitur that $2/hour isn’t a living wage. If that isn’t happening, the article is burying the lede: the problem isn’t tipping, it’s rampant wage theft. And I don’t need the complete history of tipping to know that wage theft is bad.
- tptacek 1y ago
  Servers at a lot of restaurants don't expect to make minimum wage, so don't let "the owners will have have to true comp up to minimum wage" function as an excuse not to tip. If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America.
  - conductr 1y ago
    Servers are typically loving the current state because they frequently make way more than minimum wage(after tips). They all know they’d make the equivalent of back of house/fast food wages if the employer was paying it in full. Despite this the general attitude is such that most people are cheap for anything less than ~20%, I’ve heard that even the servers running the take out stand expect these types of tips. The sense of entitlement is crazy, it’s such a low skill job and I’m so rarely actually impressed by the service or even attention I receive (there’s a general/generational degradation of all service that’s occurred in past say 15-20 years).
    - rocqua 1y ago
      Yes, for some people the current situation works great. But for plenty of others, the current situation sees them being exploited and payed less than minimum wage. It isnt a rare few either. I'm not okay with a situation where a large group is being exploited below the poverty line, just because it works out better for another large group.
ramesh31 1y ago
Ask any server if they want to get rid of tips, even given an hourly wage that would be comparable, and the vast majority will say no. Those regulars who come in and slip you a $50 bill every now and then blows any kind of "fair wage" a restaraunt could pay you out of the water. It's like working on comission. Americans are rich (comparatively, globally). For all of our gripes we still have the highest disposable income by a long shot. Many can and do enjoy tipping their waitsaff gratuitously in exchange for their service. It's the only way serving can possibly ever be anything more than low wage drudgery, given the margins of food service. If you can't afford to tip, you cant afford to eat out, plain and simple. Go to the grocery store.
- torlok 1y ago
  How many servers do you know to make such a bold assumption? I can't imagine somebody rational picking a roulette wheel over a "comparable" steady income. IMHO "if you can't tip, don't go" ends in a loss of customers, and unemployment.
  - joshstrange 1y ago
    Not OP but I work in food festival payments and my suggestion that they raise their alcohol prices by a dollar or two and pay that to the bartenders instead of tips was shot down immediately and it was explained that they could not hire bartenders without tips. I can’t speak to if that’s true but what I can tell you is that on credit card transactions they saw a 7.6% tipping rate. The drinks at this festival ranged from $8-15/ea so depending on the price, a $1-2 increase that was shared with the bartenders would net them _more_. One missing data point here is cash, cash payments accounted for half of the credit card payments and I don’t track cash tips (it would be worthless to try). Maybe people are dropping $20/$50/$100 bills in regularly that blow out my calculations. All that said, I assume the truth is somewhere closer to this being a collective action problem. Individual server might think that they can beat the curve (perhaps correctly, my numbers are averaged) which causes them to advocate for tips instead of more consistent wages. Either way, it's a sad state of affairs further complicated by bringing drugs (alcohol) into the mix. I'm sure tips flow more freely when people are cognitively impaired, which is a gross thing to prey on IMHO. Also add in the "I'll make this a heavy pour if you tip me more" (aka stealing).
yegle 1y ago
One random idea that I had for a while to replace tips: when I get a bill, that's the total amount I need to pay. There should be a line asking me to fill in a percentage. That percent of my bill goes to the service. And most importantly, set the percentage limit to 50%, so owner would have to raise menu price by 100% if they want to simply offset it. This way, customer don't feel like they are paying twice, the service team still get tips to supplement their lower income. Of course the restaurant owners won't agree to this because now they are the ones subsidizing the waiter's salary instead of the customers. Just like it should have been.
- Gud 1y ago
  I have even more radical idea: Use the agreed upon price set in the menu.
  - HDThoreaun 1y ago
    restaurants have tried this, all the servers quit. It is the servers who are forcing tips on us because they make way more money than they would on wages.
    - gambiting 1y ago
      So what, America is stuck and nothing can ever change from now until eternity?
    - Gud 1y ago
      Did they try paying fair wages? Because in your scenario, they were obviously paid less than they were before.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - mbirth 1y ago
        There’s a huge gap between a fair wage for some untrained employee that just has to carry around food without stumbling over their own feet; and the amount of $$$ some cute young blonde waitress goes home with after every shift.
sans_souse 1y ago
Always tip for quality service, and tip with cash, directly. This way you know it is going to the person who rendered the service (and the person who likely needs it, as opposed to the owner of the business)
- ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
  I don't understand why I should have to be judging just the "service" which is usually just taking the order and delivering the food. I find other aspects of restaurants to be more important such as the food quality, the comfort of the furniture and often the noise level (I don't want to have to be shouting to get heard above loud background music and everyone else having to shout). If there's any logic behind it, why don't people tip their post delivery people for their service?
  - hiq 1y ago
    > If there's any logic behind it, why don't people tip their post delivery people for their service? Well this does happen actually, I don't know how prevalent this is and whether this is getting more widespread, but given the current trends I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes fully normalized eventually.
  - sans_souse 1y ago
    What does your SERVER have control over? That's the person getting any tip you leave.
AStonesThrow 1y ago
For a long, long time, I ate at whatever restaurant was nearby. And for delivery, I had a huge stack of menus at home, and I'd order whatever tickled my fancy that day. Since I suffer from PTSD, it has been very difficult for me to discern when I was receiving bad service, disrespect, outright contempt from "the help" because of who I am or what I look like, or what my name/address was. I really just put up with it every day, as an unavoidable fact of life. And it really came to a head during the pandemic; I was using GrubHub extensively and they were systematically stealing my drinks. I'd order one drink--missing. I'd order two drinks--missing. I was having a meltdown during each reimbursement call, 3 times a day every day! And my friend counseled me that perhaps I just shouldn't return my business to a place that treats me like that. And I was like, hmm, could it be that easy? And I began to test it--I switched to DoorDash and they've been fair and honest every day. I began returning to restaurants where I had noticed they smiled to me and treated me kindly, like a human being. And the difference was amazing. Of course this worked out to mostly Catholic proprietors around town, whether Italian, Vietnamese, many Latino-run kitchens, whatever. And yes, "obsequious" sort of describes the experience sometimes. They really do value my business, especially at the struggling Irish Pub downtown, or when I pay cash to the elderly Vietnamese lady on borrowed time in the dilapidated shopping center. I can still sort of put up with thinly veiled hate when I walk into a really basic fast-food joint. But I've really curtailed my explorations of new restaurants. And I feel much better tipping the drivers and the waitresses who really do give me good service, and you know, treat me as a human person. I had begun to think it just wasn't possible.
rustcleaner 1y ago
Excellent service above expectations - tip. Normal service as to expectations - no tip. Service below basic expectations - manager. How hard is it to make this the standard?
TipsForCanoes 1y ago
One of the reasons often given for why one must tip in US restaurants is the rampant wage theft in that industry. In law the restaurant must make up the difference if tips fall short of the minimum wage but, we are told, wage theft is so common that most restaurants simply don't pay it. Some will even fire staff for falling short on tips. Why are we supposed to just look the other way while we tip to support criminal wage theft? Fair and honest pricing would remove a huge enabler to this wide spread criminal activity.
Sverigevader 1y ago
Tipping has been forced into Sweden for around 10-15? years now. I do not like it one bit. No one pays by cash, so they baked the tipping into the payment terminals. They usually come with 4-5 pre-made options with percentages, and _sometimes_ a "no gratuity" option, which will input your original total. IIRC it's always possible to skip it by pressing the (usually) green button to "continue". It'll always input your total and you can skip the entire thing and just blip your card. Some customers started to input their PIN code (which you sometimes have to do) instead of their total when this was a new thing. It made for some hilarious totals. One of the most egregious examples I can remember was a restaurant where you order digitally, and when done, you go and get your food/drinks yourself from the serving window. And they asked for tips... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sigh... I do sometimes tip though, never for lunch, but sometimes for dinner.
joshstrange 1y ago
I hate tipping. Especially the practice of tipping _before_ service is rendered. I hate even more that “taking a stand” against tipping doesn’t solve anything and just hurts the people I’d like to be helping. I work for a POS company, I hate tipping screens, but there is no way to not offer that feature. I run my own food festival payments company, I was forced to add tips for Bar payments but managed to hold firm on not adding tipping to the food vendors (even though they complain constantly about it, the entitlement is insane “how am I going to get people to work without tips?”, uh, pay them more?). My sister owns a bakery, they added tipping because they couldn’t entice people to come work for them even at $15-16/hr unless they also could make tips. This front of house we are talking about, not the people actually making the products (though tips are pooled for back of house), they are talking items out of a case and putting them in a box to hand to customer. Why that deserves a tip I’ll never know, especially since most can’t be bothered to do anything to increase sales and thus their tip. For the _first_ time in my life I clawed back a tip from a delivery app about a week ago. I’ve had many bad deliveries and bad shoppers but turns out my line in the sand was: 7hr late delivery and the meat and cheese was 70F when it arrived. I hate that _this_ is the only thing that’s caused me to remove a tip. Maybe I should be quicker to clear the tip when the delivery person messes up (happens often).
gambiting 1y ago
It's just incredible how the entirety of the American public got brainwashed into believing that it's their responsibility for subsidising restaurant staff instead of the company that hires them and ultimately reaps the reward of their work. It's so pervasive it's impossible to even have any kind of reasonable argument about it, at best it just ends with "well it is what it is".
insane_dreamer 1y ago
I tip because I know that the servers are getting shit pay because business owners are counting on tips to make up the rest. But I hate it. It's not "tipping" - which is to give some extra to show appreciation for service. It's an underhanded guilt trip to make you pay more than you thought you were going to pay for your meal. I especially hate "tipping" for cases where no service was provided. It's really just a surcharge on the coffee/whatever. Raise prices and drop the tipping. I ate at a restaurant recently where they did just that. They had a little sign on the table that said something along the lines of "we've raised our prices 20% to pay living wages and we don't encourage tipping". I left a small tip anyway, but it was a true tip.
sireat 1y ago
As a European I visited US last December for the first time in 11 years. What was shocking how many places I would say 80-90% have the "tip before service" payment terminals. Many of these type of places were those I would not associate with classical service tipping - food counters, bagel, donut, coffee places where you pick up the order from counter. Then there were some serious restaurant style places with this same type of payment system. My American friends informed that technically you can skip tipping in these places. Still this "tip ahead"" seemed really a bit of dark pattern - you feel like if you do not tip you get Tyler Durden clam chowder treatment.
mbirth 1y ago
Today, there was a great video from Honest Guide about the tipping situation in the US compared to the Czech Republic: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY Also, this is my favourite skit about tipping: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY
- bad_username 1y ago
  The URLs are the same
  - mbirth 1y ago
    Sorry, this was meant to be the second one: https://youtube.com/shorts/rEQhA-JJlH0 https://youtube.com/shorts/rEQhA-JJlH0

90 points by madpen 1y ago

HN threads on tipping turn me into the Joker. This stuff is so hard for me to read. Yes, you can trace tipping back to demeaning pre-enlightenment service worker dynamics. But you can do that with almost anything. Talk to a socialist Google worker about the morality of their $350k comp package. As I have learned the hard way trying to convince a local polity that zoning is fundamentally racist (it is), to confront a system you have to address what it is today, not what it was historically. And yes, tipping is widely abused, especially in the fast-casual and low-mid casual segments of the market. You want to set a N0% plus-up over minimum wage on front of the house jobs? I'm here for it. We're going to put a lot of restaurants out of business together with this plan --- the most abusive sectors of the restaurant business operate on the knife's edge of profitability --- but maybe that's for the best. In high-end casual and fine dining, though, tipping has nothing to do with master-serf relationships, or really any kind of exploitation. A fine dining server's comp package looks a lot like that of a sales account manager: an untenably low base with a variable comp package on top. The reasons are the same in both cases: because of principal-agent problems. A flat salary for servers (the "living wage" system) breaks incentives: if you're going to make the same money whether the restaurant is packed or empty, why would you ever want to work a Friday? Put differently: tipping gives service staff exposure to the gross upside of the business, and aligns that exposure to the server's own agency in the business --- managing the customer relationship, monitoring the products being delivered from the back of the house. This is part of the reason that expert servers quit when fine dining restaurants try to flip to no-tipping models. People complain about how manipulative or stressful tipping is. I think that's pure applesauce. Divide the check by 10 and multiply by two. Or double the sales tax. Your check probably has the 15-20% line figured out for you already. You go into an American restaurant knowing you're on the hook for the tip, like adults in America have done for generations. If it's a scam to fool you into thinking prices are lower than they are, we've all had more than enough time to metabolize and work around it. Tipping subsidizes owners. But everything you spend in a restaurant subsidizes owners. You're where all the revenue in this industry comes from. This not the system I would design if I was the Pope of Chili Town. But it's not the moral calamity nerds like us make it out to be, either.

rustcleaner 1y ago
Tie pay to performance then. As for Fridays, start a baserate bidding market for your workers and the lowest asks win the given shift. If pay for the shift scales with number of plates served (without tips) AND Fridays pay more because the lowest ask on Fridays is typically higher than on other days, then it should not be much different than now except your customers don't feel mugged. Just ban customer tipping! Probably best to tie this all together in a "Lowest listed price is final price" law that includes a hotline for customers to report businesses/staff who retaliate over no tipping. Mainly it's so the agency can send secret shoppers of their own to test for social retaliations/pressure.
- tptacek 1y ago
  You could devise some contraption ("baserate bidding market") that is +/- 5% more {fair, transparent, predictable} than tipping, in the same way that you could improve or degrade sales compensation by eliminating commissions, yes.

briandear 1y ago

> However, even if a tipped worker provides excellent service, studies have shown that certain biases can affect tipping, especially against women and women of color. Tipping creates a dining system where people of color, elders, women, and those of foreign descent get worse service. Because those groups typically tip less or not at all. Although I never found that to be true with women. And “people of color” in the article really means black people. Asians and Hispanics seem to tip normally in my experience. And for those thinking “omg how racist” — you clearly never worked in the restaurant business in the United States before. Here is an interesting thread about black people and tipping: https://www.reddit.com/r/Serverlife/s/MGkkDmZgYq https://www.reddit.com/r/Serverlife/s/MGkkDmZgYq

n4r9 1y ago
One of the linked studies has the following (emphasis mine): > Server race has also been shown to affect tipping. Black cab drivers receive smaller tips on average than do white cab drivers ... This is true regardless of the race of the tipper – both black and white tippers give white drivers larger tips than black drivers https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/Business_Considerations_Tipping_final.pdf https://static.secure.website/wscfus/5261551/uploads/Busines... (p19) That's about cab drivers but I don't see why the case would be very different in restaurants.
disantlor 1y ago
i wouldn’t say this reddit thread clearly makes the point you think it does
cycrutchfield 1y ago
You sure you want to post your racist generalizations on a public forum with your real name attached to it?

edent 1y ago

The service in most American restaurants isn't good; it is obsequious. It is disturbing how many Americans don't notice this.

eru 1y ago
Still better than being ignored like eg can often happen in German restaurants.
- dewey 1y ago
  Sounds like you need to pick better places.
  - eru 1y ago
    I did. I moved to Singapore. German service (not just in restaurants) is proverbially bad, even among Germans. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste
- KingOfCoders 1y ago
  I'd guess it depends where you live in Germany. Berlin Mitte: Agree, yes, atrocious service, many arrogant people, no credit cards because of tax fraud (Lived the startup life in Berlin for 20 years, "Monsieur Vuong" was IMHO the worst for service and arrogance - but then there is "Il Pane e le Rose", lovely people, went there for 20 years, or "Restorani Tbilisi", my favorite restaurant in Berlin, most excellent food and service). Nice city somewhere else: No. Here in Stralsund we go to 5 restaurants regularly. All are nice, have excellent service, people are friendly, prices are fair (But I so miss Georgian food).
  - dm270 1y ago
    I agree with you. Haven’t had very bad experience with service. I for example am perfectly ok with flagging down a waiter to order extra drinks. The US make me feel uncomfortable with their almost obnoxious wait staff asking you 100 times if everything is ok…but hell breaks loose if you’re done with your meal and you just wanna sit with your buddies and have one more drink or finish your beer. Then wait staff manages to make you feel very uncomfortable in my opinion. Much worse than default German service.

Stratoscope 1y ago

(deleted)

AStonesThrow 1y ago
I am confused about what you consider “chintzy”. Pre-tax subtotal has always been my starting point for calculating the gratuity. In fact, if you’re ordering drinks with lunch, I was taught to deduct the bar total as well, and go by food served. 15% a bog standard percentage and completely fair. Especially if it were “many years ago”. I have taken note that many receipt printers now try to “cheat” us by displaying tip calculations on the after-tax. Even worse, once they run your card, they may withhold that itemized receipt, so you have no information but the grand total! It’s really unfair. And don’t forget, a rich woman does not become wealthy based on her generosity. Think about it. It’s about how much she can hold onto.
rishav_sharan 1y ago
I think the lady was right here. Tipping is what you have today, because you all support it fully
eru 1y ago
You can just not tip. If you feel guilty, give the amount you save to any of the effective charities suggested by GiveWell.
pixelatedindex 1y ago
To be fair, tipping on top of sales tax never made sense. Tip is always calculated from a pre-tax amount. And somehow the tip percentage has gone up - when I was young 15% was the norm. Precovid it was 18%. Now it’s 20%? Why is this being inflated? The prices have already gone up, so even at 15% the tip has ballooned. I also don’t understand why we have to tip waitstaff that is paid minimum wage - places like WA, CA, etc cannot have wage that is lower than the state minimum wage. I’ve worked many a retail job and have had to deal with rude customers, clean up after their mess, etc. Why pay more just because someone told me what the special is and brought me the food? Isn’t that what their job is? I don’t understand it and I just don’t eat at sit down places anymore. Take out, counter service, or bust.

mjevans 1y ago

1) I want all restaurant workers to just get a fair proper wage... 2) So that tipping is no longer subsidizing the restaurant owners. 3) Also, FFS, when demand is inelastic, the only way to lower prices is MORE SUPPLY (where it's needed). Build the housing, do not stop, just keep going until after we all die.

tptacek 1y ago
Tipping doesn't subsidize the restaurant owners.
- n4r9 1y ago
  I'm guessing they mean that without tipping, more of the restaurant's revenue would go towards wages.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    Sure, but the prices would also be commensurately higher.
    - n4r9 1y ago
      Does that make it not a subsidy? We say that the US govt subsidises oil companies even though petrol prices would be higher if they stopped.
    - tossandthrow 1y ago
      Thisnis one of these counter arguments you often hear in favor of low wages in general. And it is a horrendous argument. You are literally actively arguing for greater inequality. If a company can not cover their costs with their revenue, then they need to cease to exists. And ofcause they need to pay fair market wages.
      - scarface_74 1y ago
        [flagged]

shmerl 1y ago

Really bad practice. Prices should be flat without any expected extra payments and workers should be paid fair wages.

amrocha 1y ago
Workers are already paid fair wages. The employer needs to ensure workers make minimum wage at minimum.

vldmrs 1y ago

As a European, I can safely say that tipping in American restaurants is one of the most unusual things I remember about America. The amount of tips is huge and they are demanded of you everywhere

tptacek 1y ago
Correct. They are demanded of you everywhere.
- shermantanktop 1y ago
  And European tourists are notorious for not tipping, because they have not taken the time to understand our bizarre customs which we don’t even like. Combine that with the fact that tourists everywhere are more difficult and time-consuming to deal with and it’s a recipe for resentment. Just last week I saw a group of Spanish visitors to NYC create a confusing maelstrom of orders at a coffee shop and then override the tip to zero, all while shouting across the room to each other.
  - scarface_74 1y ago
    I frequent a bar in a tourist area with many international tourists. They finally just by default added an 18% service charge and a line for an additional tip. The servers and bartenders are always very explicit about the tip being included. This feels much more fair to me.
    - ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
      Here in the UK, it's common for a "service charge" to be added to bills which is the equivalent of a tip, but considered mandatory for large groups. I think the next step is to just roll the tips/service charge into the food prices and thus not be pushing employee wage issues onto customers.
    - nasmorn 1y ago
      That is simply a markup and should be reflected in the price. Euro style tipping is annoying enough but percentages in the US are huge. It is really not an afterthought to the whole transaction. Imagine you bought a car and the dealers profit would be totally optional for you to decide. The situation is frankly ludicrous

janalsncm 1y ago

I hate tipping. The last think I want to do after eating is math. And don’t get me started on the inefficient payment ritual we have to endure: flag down the waiter for the check, wait for the check, wait for them to take your cc, wait for them to ring it up and bring it back, then do some math. Unnecessary. That said, minimum wage is minimum wage. If an employee doesn’t make that up in tips, the law is that the restaurant needs to make up the difference. So it’s a complete non sequitur that $2/hour isn’t a living wage. If that isn’t happening, the article is burying the lede: the problem isn’t tipping, it’s rampant wage theft. And I don’t need the complete history of tipping to know that wage theft is bad.

tptacek 1y ago
Servers at a lot of restaurants don't expect to make minimum wage, so don't let "the owners will have have to true comp up to minimum wage" function as an excuse not to tip. If you don't want to tip, don't dine at full-service restaurants in America.
- conductr 1y ago
  Servers are typically loving the current state because they frequently make way more than minimum wage(after tips). They all know they’d make the equivalent of back of house/fast food wages if the employer was paying it in full. Despite this the general attitude is such that most people are cheap for anything less than ~20%, I’ve heard that even the servers running the take out stand expect these types of tips. The sense of entitlement is crazy, it’s such a low skill job and I’m so rarely actually impressed by the service or even attention I receive (there’s a general/generational degradation of all service that’s occurred in past say 15-20 years).
  - rocqua 1y ago
    Yes, for some people the current situation works great. But for plenty of others, the current situation sees them being exploited and payed less than minimum wage. It isnt a rare few either. I'm not okay with a situation where a large group is being exploited below the poverty line, just because it works out better for another large group.

ramesh31 1y ago

Ask any server if they want to get rid of tips, even given an hourly wage that would be comparable, and the vast majority will say no. Those regulars who come in and slip you a $50 bill every now and then blows any kind of "fair wage" a restaraunt could pay you out of the water. It's like working on comission. Americans are rich (comparatively, globally). For all of our gripes we still have the highest disposable income by a long shot. Many can and do enjoy tipping their waitsaff gratuitously in exchange for their service. It's the only way serving can possibly ever be anything more than low wage drudgery, given the margins of food service. If you can't afford to tip, you cant afford to eat out, plain and simple. Go to the grocery store.

torlok 1y ago
How many servers do you know to make such a bold assumption? I can't imagine somebody rational picking a roulette wheel over a "comparable" steady income. IMHO "if you can't tip, don't go" ends in a loss of customers, and unemployment.
- joshstrange 1y ago
  Not OP but I work in food festival payments and my suggestion that they raise their alcohol prices by a dollar or two and pay that to the bartenders instead of tips was shot down immediately and it was explained that they could not hire bartenders without tips. I can’t speak to if that’s true but what I can tell you is that on credit card transactions they saw a 7.6% tipping rate. The drinks at this festival ranged from $8-15/ea so depending on the price, a $1-2 increase that was shared with the bartenders would net them _more_. One missing data point here is cash, cash payments accounted for half of the credit card payments and I don’t track cash tips (it would be worthless to try). Maybe people are dropping $20/$50/$100 bills in regularly that blow out my calculations. All that said, I assume the truth is somewhere closer to this being a collective action problem. Individual server might think that they can beat the curve (perhaps correctly, my numbers are averaged) which causes them to advocate for tips instead of more consistent wages. Either way, it's a sad state of affairs further complicated by bringing drugs (alcohol) into the mix. I'm sure tips flow more freely when people are cognitively impaired, which is a gross thing to prey on IMHO. Also add in the "I'll make this a heavy pour if you tip me more" (aka stealing).

yegle 1y ago

One random idea that I had for a while to replace tips: when I get a bill, that's the total amount I need to pay. There should be a line asking me to fill in a percentage. That percent of my bill goes to the service. And most importantly, set the percentage limit to 50%, so owner would have to raise menu price by 100% if they want to simply offset it. This way, customer don't feel like they are paying twice, the service team still get tips to supplement their lower income. Of course the restaurant owners won't agree to this because now they are the ones subsidizing the waiter's salary instead of the customers. Just like it should have been.

Gud 1y ago
I have even more radical idea: Use the agreed upon price set in the menu.
- HDThoreaun 1y ago
  restaurants have tried this, all the servers quit. It is the servers who are forcing tips on us because they make way more money than they would on wages.
  - gambiting 1y ago
    So what, America is stuck and nothing can ever change from now until eternity?
  - Gud 1y ago
    Did they try paying fair wages? Because in your scenario, they were obviously paid less than they were before.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - mbirth 1y ago
      There’s a huge gap between a fair wage for some untrained employee that just has to carry around food without stumbling over their own feet; and the amount of $$$ some cute young blonde waitress goes home with after every shift.

sans_souse 1y ago

Always tip for quality service, and tip with cash, directly. This way you know it is going to the person who rendered the service (and the person who likely needs it, as opposed to the owner of the business)

ndsipa_pomu 1y ago
I don't understand why I should have to be judging just the "service" which is usually just taking the order and delivering the food. I find other aspects of restaurants to be more important such as the food quality, the comfort of the furniture and often the noise level (I don't want to have to be shouting to get heard above loud background music and everyone else having to shout). If there's any logic behind it, why don't people tip their post delivery people for their service?
- hiq 1y ago
  > If there's any logic behind it, why don't people tip their post delivery people for their service? Well this does happen actually, I don't know how prevalent this is and whether this is getting more widespread, but given the current trends I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes fully normalized eventually.
- sans_souse 1y ago
  What does your SERVER have control over? That's the person getting any tip you leave.

AStonesThrow 1y ago

For a long, long time, I ate at whatever restaurant was nearby. And for delivery, I had a huge stack of menus at home, and I'd order whatever tickled my fancy that day. Since I suffer from PTSD, it has been very difficult for me to discern when I was receiving bad service, disrespect, outright contempt from "the help" because of who I am or what I look like, or what my name/address was. I really just put up with it every day, as an unavoidable fact of life. And it really came to a head during the pandemic; I was using GrubHub extensively and they were systematically stealing my drinks. I'd order one drink--missing. I'd order two drinks--missing. I was having a meltdown during each reimbursement call, 3 times a day every day! And my friend counseled me that perhaps I just shouldn't return my business to a place that treats me like that. And I was like, hmm, could it be that easy? And I began to test it--I switched to DoorDash and they've been fair and honest every day. I began returning to restaurants where I had noticed they smiled to me and treated me kindly, like a human being. And the difference was amazing. Of course this worked out to mostly Catholic proprietors around town, whether Italian, Vietnamese, many Latino-run kitchens, whatever. And yes, "obsequious" sort of describes the experience sometimes. They really do value my business, especially at the struggling Irish Pub downtown, or when I pay cash to the elderly Vietnamese lady on borrowed time in the dilapidated shopping center. I can still sort of put up with thinly veiled hate when I walk into a really basic fast-food joint. But I've really curtailed my explorations of new restaurants. And I feel much better tipping the drivers and the waitresses who really do give me good service, and you know, treat me as a human person. I had begun to think it just wasn't possible.

rustcleaner 1y ago

Excellent service above expectations - tip. Normal service as to expectations - no tip. Service below basic expectations - manager. How hard is it to make this the standard?

TipsForCanoes 1y ago

One of the reasons often given for why one must tip in US restaurants is the rampant wage theft in that industry. In law the restaurant must make up the difference if tips fall short of the minimum wage but, we are told, wage theft is so common that most restaurants simply don't pay it. Some will even fire staff for falling short on tips. Why are we supposed to just look the other way while we tip to support criminal wage theft? Fair and honest pricing would remove a huge enabler to this wide spread criminal activity.

Sverigevader 1y ago

Tipping has been forced into Sweden for around 10-15? years now. I do not like it one bit. No one pays by cash, so they baked the tipping into the payment terminals. They usually come with 4-5 pre-made options with percentages, and _sometimes_ a "no gratuity" option, which will input your original total. IIRC it's always possible to skip it by pressing the (usually) green button to "continue". It'll always input your total and you can skip the entire thing and just blip your card. Some customers started to input their PIN code (which you sometimes have to do) instead of their total when this was a new thing. It made for some hilarious totals. One of the most egregious examples I can remember was a restaurant where you order digitally, and when done, you go and get your food/drinks yourself from the serving window. And they asked for tips... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sigh... I do sometimes tip though, never for lunch, but sometimes for dinner.

joshstrange 1y ago

I hate tipping. Especially the practice of tipping _before_ service is rendered. I hate even more that “taking a stand” against tipping doesn’t solve anything and just hurts the people I’d like to be helping. I work for a POS company, I hate tipping screens, but there is no way to not offer that feature. I run my own food festival payments company, I was forced to add tips for Bar payments but managed to hold firm on not adding tipping to the food vendors (even though they complain constantly about it, the entitlement is insane “how am I going to get people to work without tips?”, uh, pay them more?). My sister owns a bakery, they added tipping because they couldn’t entice people to come work for them even at $15-16/hr unless they also could make tips. This front of house we are talking about, not the people actually making the products (though tips are pooled for back of house), they are talking items out of a case and putting them in a box to hand to customer. Why that deserves a tip I’ll never know, especially since most can’t be bothered to do anything to increase sales and thus their tip. For the _first_ time in my life I clawed back a tip from a delivery app about a week ago. I’ve had many bad deliveries and bad shoppers but turns out my line in the sand was: 7hr late delivery and the meat and cheese was 70F when it arrived. I hate that _this_ is the only thing that’s caused me to remove a tip. Maybe I should be quicker to clear the tip when the delivery person messes up (happens often).

gambiting 1y ago

It's just incredible how the entirety of the American public got brainwashed into believing that it's their responsibility for subsidising restaurant staff instead of the company that hires them and ultimately reaps the reward of their work. It's so pervasive it's impossible to even have any kind of reasonable argument about it, at best it just ends with "well it is what it is".

insane_dreamer 1y ago

I tip because I know that the servers are getting shit pay because business owners are counting on tips to make up the rest. But I hate it. It's not "tipping" - which is to give some extra to show appreciation for service. It's an underhanded guilt trip to make you pay more than you thought you were going to pay for your meal. I especially hate "tipping" for cases where no service was provided. It's really just a surcharge on the coffee/whatever. Raise prices and drop the tipping. I ate at a restaurant recently where they did just that. They had a little sign on the table that said something along the lines of "we've raised our prices 20% to pay living wages and we don't encourage tipping". I left a small tip anyway, but it was a true tip.

sireat 1y ago

As a European I visited US last December for the first time in 11 years. What was shocking how many places I would say 80-90% have the "tip before service" payment terminals. Many of these type of places were those I would not associate with classical service tipping - food counters, bagel, donut, coffee places where you pick up the order from counter. Then there were some serious restaurant style places with this same type of payment system. My American friends informed that technically you can skip tipping in these places. Still this "tip ahead"" seemed really a bit of dark pattern - you feel like if you do not tip you get Tyler Durden clam chowder treatment.

mbirth 1y ago

Today, there was a great video from Honest Guide about the tipping situation in the US compared to the Czech Republic: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY Also, this is my favourite skit about tipping: https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY https://youtube.com/watch?v=KHDpVPKuwjY

bad_username 1y ago
The URLs are the same
- mbirth 1y ago
  Sorry, this was meant to be the second one: https://youtube.com/shorts/rEQhA-JJlH0 https://youtube.com/shorts/rEQhA-JJlH0