6 ms·

Netflix introduces a new kind of subtitles for the non-hearing impaired

31 points by furcyd 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ChrisArchitect 1y ago
Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788473
pulvinar 1y ago
>The performance style of actors in current TV shows and movies is more naturalistic and less elocutive than it once was, so characters are more likely to speak softly. Yeah, I've given up on new movies. If I want naturalistic without a storyline, I can just go outside. I'm not going to turn the volume up to the level required to hear the mumbled whispers, just to have my hearing damaged by the next gunshot or blast of music. Subtitles aren't a fix -- they're distracting and therefore annoying. A selectable "classic" audio track would be the fix.
- monetus 1y ago
  It is bad audio processing; "too good" rather, as if the silver screen was the only place anyone watched movies.
  - grues-dinner 1y ago
    It's not even that, I couldn't hear large parts of Oppenheimer, having paid a hefty premium for a cinema with a good sound system.
- milesrout 1y ago
  I think they mix movies differently than they used to, maybe because people all seem to have soundbars today?
- watwut 1y ago
  It is absurd to call it naturalistic. If people can understand others in real world situations, but struggle to follow them in a movie, it was not naturalistic.
  - stefs 1y ago
    but that's the unrealistic part. in the real world people don't understand each other all the time, but all those "sorry, what did you say?"s would be annoying on screen (like so many other things that are skipped in movies). actors don't talk naturally at all, it just seems to us that way because we're used to them talking like that on screen.
WalterGR 1y ago
Article tagline: “Just the dialogue—no sound effects or music cues.” Do any HNers find those cues sufficiently distracting that they’re excited about this feature? I always have subtitles on. While I find those cues occasionally amusing, I’ve never found them to be an impediment to my enjoyment. Maybe they are for people who read slowly? Or because they break the fourth wall?
- pests 1y ago
  Eh, I don't need help hearing background noise. I need help understanding the words coming out of the actors mouths because the mix is wrong or directed that way.
  - doublerabbit 1y ago
    Exactly the same issue. Quiet parts loud, loud parts quiet.
- conartist6 1y ago
  To be honest I usually think they're tacky because I imagine they detract from the experience of nearly every single person. It's the kind of thing where there is a horse-drawn carriage going by on screen and they print the text "[clip clop clip clop]". If you can't hear it, wouldn't you just want to watch it?
  - avidiax 1y ago
    Sometimes the sound can be offscreen, e.g.: [Window breaking] [Gun cocking] [Stairs creaking]
    - stevage 1y ago
      Yeah those make sense to me, because they're part of the plot. The weird ones for me are where some absolutely unintelligible background murmuring is subtitled. I couldn't tell that any actual words had been spoken and suddenly it's all spelt out.
conartist6 1y ago
Oh my goodness it only took like ten years but they finally did it!
- bitpush 1y ago
  one would think this was an explicit usecase/requirement 10 years back, nor was it obvious that this was needed. Progress is always slow but inevitable.
monetus 1y ago
People very much need this. Making them visually more fitting, less distracting, would be a nice next step. This won't replace the mixer I run my audio through, though. A bit of a pain, and you need a mixer, but try it if you can.
instagib 1y ago
Boost spoken audio + adjust playback speed may get me to watch more movies and tv shows.
stevage 1y ago
The problem I frequently run into on various platforms is shows with some occasional foreign language that is meant to be subtitled. I end up getting either no subtitles (and it takes me a while to realise that I'm meant to understand) or I turn subtitles on and suddenly all the English is subtitled too, which I don't want. I don't get why this is complicated.
solardev 1y ago
Wait, is this really a new thing...? I could've sworn I've seen it in streaming services before, where you could choose between dialog only and closed captioning. One is usually called "English" and the other is "English SDH" or similar, where SDH is "subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing". It's the exact difference this article points out (sound effects and music etc., as opposed to just dialog). https://www.3playmedia.com/blog/whats-the-difference-subtitles-for-the-deaf-and-hard-of-hearing-sdh-v-closed-captions/ https://www.3playmedia.com/blog/whats-the-difference-subtitl... Video games have also had this as an explicit option for many years, maybe decades (Half Life 2 comes to mind). Not only did Netflix not invent this, I could swear some of their shows have had it for years already...
- altairprime 1y ago
  The linked Netflix support article introduces a new distinction: English (CC) is described as separate from English; and then, a sentence or two later, they use the phrase “CC/SDH”. So, Netflix is changing their definition of the word “subtitles” to represent dialogue-only captions, as a distinct thing from CC/SDH “captions” — even though the S in CC/SDH stands for subtitles. It might be interesting to look to the .SRT file communities and see whether user-produced contributions contain sfx/bgm subtitles or merely dialogue subtitles, as that could reveal a similar shift in definition/usage prior to Netflix’s press release about their own.
  - danielbln 1y ago
    I don't think I've ever seen user supplies SRTs that contains the CC m-style music and sound cues (though they make up for that by including some NordVPN ad at the beginning or end...)
  - solardev 1y ago
    Yes... but that isn't new. It's been around for years.
    - altairprime 1y ago
      Correct. (?)
satellite2 1y ago
While YouTube still displays it word by word, forcing you to not look at the video. Cheers to Netflix in the age of user hostile and anti ergonomic patterns (while they still have their fair share of sins in this area, at least one good news)
mrandish 1y ago
Frankly, I'd rather that content producers and their sound mixing and mastering engineers just improve the audio levels of their dialog tracks in relation to the rest of the mix. I already have my center audio channel goosed +3db beyond the professionally calibrated academy reference levels to help with legibility. The problem is that mixes are increasing in dynamic range, so if I elevate the center channel level (where most dialog is) even more to lift the occasionally inaudible utterance, some of the rest of the center channel content is too loud in relation to the other channels. While my high-end home theater audio system has DSP functions like dynamic compression which I can apply to smooth out the center channel, that's relying on a blanket algorithm in an attempt to fix something that's much better fixed on the mixing stage in the first place. The mixing engineers have much better tools which they can selectively apply when needed and even have the option of problematic dialog being re-looped if necessary. It's their job to get this right and they certainly have the all the tools and training to do it properly and only when, and as much, as actually necessary. Having home viewers slap some auto-mode plug-in over the entire run time of a sound mix that was painstakingly hand-mastered scene-by-scene is objectively the worst way to solve the problem. This simply makes no sense because the entire modern signal chain is digital. There's no technical reason the gain shouldn't be correct. The fact that dialog audio levels are still a recurring problem in my properly calibrated, 11.2.4 THX-rated dedicated home theater must be that the audio engineers aren't being given the time and resources to do their job properly or are being instructed to do this as some misguided aesthetic choice (looking at you Christopher Nolan).
- scilro 1y ago
  I'm really glad you posted this, it's good to know that I didn't mess up the calibration of my (much humbler) 3.1 system.
- hapticmonkey 1y ago
  AppleTV 4K box with the new Enhance Dialogue feature has been working great for me. Raising the center channel never sounded great to me, because there are so many other sounds in the center channel as well. At least now I can raise only the dialogue levels on demand.
raphael_l 1y ago
A bit off-topic, but one gripe I had with some implementations of subtitles is when they’re delivering on the identity of a person before this was exposed. I don’t know why this happens that it would reveal <Name: Dialog> where it should instead be <Generic trait: Dialog>. So instead of <Phil: Blah blah> it would be <Raspy voice: Blah blah>. I don’t have examples for this, but it happens regularly that I noticed it as a trend. Might be because subtitles are outsourced and maybe the importance of exposition is not clear to the people creating the subtitles?
- altairprime 1y ago
  A very few shows are attentive enough to this that the character name will change as plot is revealed within a scene. Most, sadly, are not.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
smcleod 1y ago
All these streaming services need better down mixing from surround sound to stereo, so often people can't hear the dialogue because it's been mixed for a centre speaker which becomes too low in the downmix to 2.0/2.1.

31 points by furcyd 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ChrisArchitect 1y ago

Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43788473

pulvinar 1y ago

>The performance style of actors in current TV shows and movies is more naturalistic and less elocutive than it once was, so characters are more likely to speak softly. Yeah, I've given up on new movies. If I want naturalistic without a storyline, I can just go outside. I'm not going to turn the volume up to the level required to hear the mumbled whispers, just to have my hearing damaged by the next gunshot or blast of music. Subtitles aren't a fix -- they're distracting and therefore annoying. A selectable "classic" audio track would be the fix.

monetus 1y ago
It is bad audio processing; "too good" rather, as if the silver screen was the only place anyone watched movies.
- grues-dinner 1y ago
  It's not even that, I couldn't hear large parts of Oppenheimer, having paid a hefty premium for a cinema with a good sound system.
milesrout 1y ago
I think they mix movies differently than they used to, maybe because people all seem to have soundbars today?
watwut 1y ago
It is absurd to call it naturalistic. If people can understand others in real world situations, but struggle to follow them in a movie, it was not naturalistic.
- stefs 1y ago
  but that's the unrealistic part. in the real world people don't understand each other all the time, but all those "sorry, what did you say?"s would be annoying on screen (like so many other things that are skipped in movies). actors don't talk naturally at all, it just seems to us that way because we're used to them talking like that on screen.

WalterGR 1y ago

Article tagline: “Just the dialogue—no sound effects or music cues.” Do any HNers find those cues sufficiently distracting that they’re excited about this feature? I always have subtitles on. While I find those cues occasionally amusing, I’ve never found them to be an impediment to my enjoyment. Maybe they are for people who read slowly? Or because they break the fourth wall?

pests 1y ago
Eh, I don't need help hearing background noise. I need help understanding the words coming out of the actors mouths because the mix is wrong or directed that way.
- doublerabbit 1y ago
  Exactly the same issue. Quiet parts loud, loud parts quiet.
conartist6 1y ago
To be honest I usually think they're tacky because I imagine they detract from the experience of nearly every single person. It's the kind of thing where there is a horse-drawn carriage going by on screen and they print the text "[clip clop clip clop]". If you can't hear it, wouldn't you just want to watch it?
- avidiax 1y ago
  Sometimes the sound can be offscreen, e.g.: [Window breaking] [Gun cocking] [Stairs creaking]
  - stevage 1y ago
    Yeah those make sense to me, because they're part of the plot. The weird ones for me are where some absolutely unintelligible background murmuring is subtitled. I couldn't tell that any actual words had been spoken and suddenly it's all spelt out.

conartist6 1y ago

Oh my goodness it only took like ten years but they finally did it!

bitpush 1y ago
one would think this was an explicit usecase/requirement 10 years back, nor was it obvious that this was needed. Progress is always slow but inevitable.

monetus 1y ago

People very much need this. Making them visually more fitting, less distracting, would be a nice next step. This won't replace the mixer I run my audio through, though. A bit of a pain, and you need a mixer, but try it if you can.

instagib 1y ago

Boost spoken audio + adjust playback speed may get me to watch more movies and tv shows.

stevage 1y ago

The problem I frequently run into on various platforms is shows with some occasional foreign language that is meant to be subtitled. I end up getting either no subtitles (and it takes me a while to realise that I'm meant to understand) or I turn subtitles on and suddenly all the English is subtitled too, which I don't want. I don't get why this is complicated.

solardev 1y ago

Wait, is this really a new thing...? I could've sworn I've seen it in streaming services before, where you could choose between dialog only and closed captioning. One is usually called "English" and the other is "English SDH" or similar, where SDH is "subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing". It's the exact difference this article points out (sound effects and music etc., as opposed to just dialog). https://www.3playmedia.com/blog/whats-the-difference-subtitles-for-the-deaf-and-hard-of-hearing-sdh-v-closed-captions/ https://www.3playmedia.com/blog/whats-the-difference-subtitl... Video games have also had this as an explicit option for many years, maybe decades (Half Life 2 comes to mind). Not only did Netflix not invent this, I could swear some of their shows have had it for years already...

altairprime 1y ago
The linked Netflix support article introduces a new distinction: English (CC) is described as separate from English; and then, a sentence or two later, they use the phrase “CC/SDH”. So, Netflix is changing their definition of the word “subtitles” to represent dialogue-only captions, as a distinct thing from CC/SDH “captions” — even though the S in CC/SDH stands for subtitles. It might be interesting to look to the .SRT file communities and see whether user-produced contributions contain sfx/bgm subtitles or merely dialogue subtitles, as that could reveal a similar shift in definition/usage prior to Netflix’s press release about their own.
- danielbln 1y ago
  I don't think I've ever seen user supplies SRTs that contains the CC m-style music and sound cues (though they make up for that by including some NordVPN ad at the beginning or end...)
- solardev 1y ago
  Yes... but that isn't new. It's been around for years.
  - altairprime 1y ago
    Correct. (?)

satellite2 1y ago

While YouTube still displays it word by word, forcing you to not look at the video. Cheers to Netflix in the age of user hostile and anti ergonomic patterns (while they still have their fair share of sins in this area, at least one good news)

mrandish 1y ago

Frankly, I'd rather that content producers and their sound mixing and mastering engineers just improve the audio levels of their dialog tracks in relation to the rest of the mix. I already have my center audio channel goosed +3db beyond the professionally calibrated academy reference levels to help with legibility. The problem is that mixes are increasing in dynamic range, so if I elevate the center channel level (where most dialog is) even more to lift the occasionally inaudible utterance, some of the rest of the center channel content is too loud in relation to the other channels. While my high-end home theater audio system has DSP functions like dynamic compression which I can apply to smooth out the center channel, that's relying on a blanket algorithm in an attempt to fix something that's much better fixed on the mixing stage in the first place. The mixing engineers have much better tools which they can selectively apply when needed and even have the option of problematic dialog being re-looped if necessary. It's their job to get this right and they certainly have the all the tools and training to do it properly and only when, and as much, as actually necessary. Having home viewers slap some auto-mode plug-in over the entire run time of a sound mix that was painstakingly hand-mastered scene-by-scene is objectively the worst way to solve the problem. This simply makes no sense because the entire modern signal chain is digital. There's no technical reason the gain shouldn't be correct. The fact that dialog audio levels are still a recurring problem in my properly calibrated, 11.2.4 THX-rated dedicated home theater must be that the audio engineers aren't being given the time and resources to do their job properly or are being instructed to do this as some misguided aesthetic choice (looking at you Christopher Nolan).

scilro 1y ago
I'm really glad you posted this, it's good to know that I didn't mess up the calibration of my (much humbler) 3.1 system.
hapticmonkey 1y ago
AppleTV 4K box with the new Enhance Dialogue feature has been working great for me. Raising the center channel never sounded great to me, because there are so many other sounds in the center channel as well. At least now I can raise only the dialogue levels on demand.

raphael_l 1y ago

A bit off-topic, but one gripe I had with some implementations of subtitles is when they’re delivering on the identity of a person before this was exposed. I don’t know why this happens that it would reveal <Name: Dialog> where it should instead be <Generic trait: Dialog>. So instead of <Phil: Blah blah> it would be <Raspy voice: Blah blah>. I don’t have examples for this, but it happens regularly that I noticed it as a trend. Might be because subtitles are outsourced and maybe the importance of exposition is not clear to the people creating the subtitles?

altairprime 1y ago
A very few shows are attentive enough to this that the character name will change as plot is revealed within a scene. Most, sadly, are not.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

smcleod 1y ago

All these streaming services need better down mixing from surround sound to stereo, so often people can't hear the dialogue because it's been mixed for a centre speaker which becomes too low in the downmix to 2.0/2.1.