4 ms·

It’s extremely regressive. You’d need to also give a rebate based on income level.

Spooky23 2y ago
That’s the excuse that is used for agriculture. They sell a vision of a Fisher Price toy farm, but make policy for giant Midwest farms. The proverbial blue collar truck owner is already screwed. Random surburban dude should be paying through the nose for his F-250. Create demand for fuel efficiency, and you’ll have cars like my dad’s 1993 Escort Wagon, that got 45mpg.
patmcc 2y ago
Give everybody $1000 (or whatever) to offset that. Ends up being neutral for some folks, a net benefit to the poor, and a net cost to the rich. This is already how lots of jurisdictions handle regressive taxes.
morepedantic 2y ago
Tax the poor for carbon emission. They'll adjust. People will walk, bike, take the bus, car pool, and buy used hybrids instead of mustangs. PS, regressive use taxes are 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical.
- kasey_junk 2y ago
  > regressive use taxes are 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical Turns out you are wrong.
  - morepedantic 2y ago
    Life-style should never be subsidized. God forbid that someone feels the repercussions of their life-style, which is the only feedback mechanism that will ever cause change. My moral system will stop global warming and save the planet. Your moral system will destroy the planet and kill billions. Everyone needs to be responsible, including the poor. Tough.
    - kasey_junk 2y ago
      You don’t know anything about my moral system. I know that you declared all regressive use taxes in all cases as morally right. But a system that makes it so you must drive an ICE vehicle to participate in the economy, makes the price of food directly indexed to gasoline costs and then provides tax breaks to the rich who can afford to buy new electric vehicles while increasing the taxes on the poor who can’t is not 100% morally right. There are lots of ways to introduce a gas tax that are ethically sound but they aren’t simple and the idea that _any_ use tax is morally just is idiotic.
      - morepedantic 1y ago
        >But a system that makes it so you must drive an ICE vehicle to participate in the economy You're literally subsidizing this system by preventing use taxes on gasoline. >provides tax breaks to the rich 42% of people pay no income tax, and 80% pay net zero or less. Poor people care how benefits are apportioned amongst the poor, not how taxes are apportioned amongst the rich. >You don’t know anything about my moral system. I know enough: you hate use taxes, because they are regressive (when the metric is % of income, not when it is magnitude). But use taxes, like any price, provide critical feedback to the consumer to avoid failure modes like the tragedy of the commons. In this particular case that feedback acts as a restoring force against the literal destruction of the planet's habitability. My moral system doesn't preclude use taxes on general principle, but your moral system does. Ergo, I'm offering a moral system that will save the planet, innumerable ecosystems, and possibly the human species, but you're offering a moral system that lets us feel warm and fuzzy, emphasis on warm. >I know that you declared all regressive use taxes in all cases as morally right. What an odd interpretation. I was clearly referring specifically to the regressive aspect of use taxes, not declaring the holiness of every particular use tax conceivable, historical, and existing. A: "Breathing is 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical." B: "So you want everyone to smoke crack!" A: "Income taxes are 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical." B: "So we should tax 120% of income!" Of all the ways you could have interpreted my statement you chose the most absurd.
        kasey_junk 1y ago

That’s the excuse that is used for agriculture. They sell a vision of a Fisher Price toy farm, but make policy for giant Midwest farms. The proverbial blue collar truck owner is already screwed. Random surburban dude should be paying through the nose for his F-250. Create demand for fuel efficiency, and you’ll have cars like my dad’s 1993 Escort Wagon, that got 45mpg.

patmcc 2y ago

Give everybody $1000 (or whatever) to offset that. Ends up being neutral for some folks, a net benefit to the poor, and a net cost to the rich. This is already how lots of jurisdictions handle regressive taxes.

morepedantic 2y ago

Tax the poor for carbon emission. They'll adjust. People will walk, bike, take the bus, car pool, and buy used hybrids instead of mustangs. PS, regressive use taxes are 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical.

kasey_junk 2y ago
> regressive use taxes are 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical Turns out you are wrong.
- morepedantic 2y ago
  Life-style should never be subsidized. God forbid that someone feels the repercussions of their life-style, which is the only feedback mechanism that will ever cause change. My moral system will stop global warming and save the planet. Your moral system will destroy the planet and kill billions. Everyone needs to be responsible, including the poor. Tough.
  - kasey_junk 2y ago
    You don’t know anything about my moral system. I know that you declared all regressive use taxes in all cases as morally right. But a system that makes it so you must drive an ICE vehicle to participate in the economy, makes the price of food directly indexed to gasoline costs and then provides tax breaks to the rich who can afford to buy new electric vehicles while increasing the taxes on the poor who can’t is not 100% morally right. There are lots of ways to introduce a gas tax that are ethically sound but they aren’t simple and the idea that _any_ use tax is morally just is idiotic.
    - morepedantic 1y ago
      >But a system that makes it so you must drive an ICE vehicle to participate in the economy You're literally subsidizing this system by preventing use taxes on gasoline. >provides tax breaks to the rich 42% of people pay no income tax, and 80% pay net zero or less. Poor people care how benefits are apportioned amongst the poor, not how taxes are apportioned amongst the rich. >You don’t know anything about my moral system. I know enough: you hate use taxes, because they are regressive (when the metric is % of income, not when it is magnitude). But use taxes, like any price, provide critical feedback to the consumer to avoid failure modes like the tragedy of the commons. In this particular case that feedback acts as a restoring force against the literal destruction of the planet's habitability. My moral system doesn't preclude use taxes on general principle, but your moral system does. Ergo, I'm offering a moral system that will save the planet, innumerable ecosystems, and possibly the human species, but you're offering a moral system that lets us feel warm and fuzzy, emphasis on warm. >I know that you declared all regressive use taxes in all cases as morally right. What an odd interpretation. I was clearly referring specifically to the regressive aspect of use taxes, not declaring the holiness of every particular use tax conceivable, historical, and existing. A: "Breathing is 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical." B: "So you want everyone to smoke crack!" A: "Income taxes are 100% moral, fine, upstanding, and ethical." B: "So we should tax 120% of income!" Of all the ways you could have interpreted my statement you chose the most absurd.
      - kasey_junk 1y ago