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This line of thinking only works if you consider illegal immigrants as people of which a certain side does not and is actively arguing that the bill of rights o

This line of thinking only works if you consider illegal immigrants as people of which a certain side does not and is actively arguing that the bill of rights only applies to citizens. Basically, if you view illegal immigrants as the end of the world, then any deferral of their deportation is equally as bad. There is no room for discussion on this topic, being "illegal" is a cardinal sin and must be punished at all costs.

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
> bill of rights only applies to citizens. I could argue that it’s inhumane, contradicts all the values US claims to stand for, or could be used as a back door to harass citizens. But ultimately fundamental issue is this - if you want to be a seat of global capital and finance, a global reserve currency and the worlds most important stock exchange, that is the price. Transnational corporations, their bosses and employees have to feel secure. That is the only reason (often corrupt) businessman take their money from Russia, China, and other regimes that do not guarantee human rights and bring it to the west.
- hypeatei 2y ago
  I think some are missing the sarcasm. I enjoyed your comment at least.
godelski 2y ago
> if you consider illegal immigrants as people Actually, I disagree[0]. The logic works just fine if you recognize that it is impossible to achieve 100% success rate. It is absolutely insane to me that on a website full of engineers people do not consider failure analysis when it comes to laws. Conditioned that you have not determined someone is an illegal immigrant: _______What do you want to happen here? _________________ Wait, sorry, let me use code for the deaf if (person.citizenStatus == illegal && person.citizenStatus in police.knowledge()) { deport(person, police) } else if (person.citizenStatus == illegal) { // What do you want to happen? // deport(person) returns error. There is no police to deport them } else if (person.citizenStatus == legal) { fullRights(person) } else if (person.citizenStatus == unknown { // Also a necessary question to answer // Do you want police randomly checking every person? That's expensive and a similar event helped create America as well as a very different Germany } else { // raise error, we shouldn't be here? } Am I missing something? Seems like you could be completely selfish, hate illegal immigrants, AND benefit through policies of Sanctuary Cities and giving them TINs. How is that last one even an argument? It's "free" money. EDIT: > the bill of rights only applies to citizens Just a note. This has been tested in courts and there's plenty of writings from the founders themselves, both of which would evidence that the rights are to everyone (the latter obviously influencing the former). It's not hard to guess why. See the "alternative solution" in my linked comment... It's about the `person.citizenStatus == unknown` case.... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43796826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43796826
- throwawayqqq11 2y ago
  This is full of flaws. After due process via courts, deportation is justified. So you need a big "if" before all of that. ICE is not the police. There should be no (broad) if-clause to grant rights. Unknown citizenship is not something you need to check for constantly, as you hinted.
  - godelski 2y ago
    > After due process via courts, deportation is justified. Yes? >> if (person.citizenStatus == illegal && person.citizenStatus in police.knowledge()) { deport(person, police) After due process citizen status is in police knowledge, right? So they're illegal, ICE knows it, and our flow chart says... deport. Which condition do you believe is not satisfied? Do you believe the status of the person is not "illegal"? If so, why would we deport them? Or do you believe that the police are not aware of the person's citizenship status? If so how could we deport them? > ICE is not the police. Police (noun) [0] 1 a: the department of government concerned primarily with maintenance of public order, safety, and health and enforcement of laws and possessing executive, judicial, and legislative powers b: the department of government charged with prevention, detection, and prosecution of public nuisances and crimes United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (aka ICE) [1] a federal law enforcement agency under the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. ICE is a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, they are de facto "police." I think you are confusing the fact that "police" is a broad term and because it is less common to deal with federal law enforcement you have a higher frequency of hearing local law enforcement being referred to as "the police". But they both are. "Police" == "Law Enforcement" [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_E...
    - crote 2y ago
      You're assuming that `police.knowledge` is sourced from an infallible oracle, and that the code is being executed by a fully trustworthy party. This isn't the case in practice. You need a giant try-catch around the whole thing, with the person being targeted being able to trigger an exception and force a re-evaluation at any point. That's what the basic human rights are for - placing those deep inside a nested if-statement is going to mean your code will horribly crash and burn, without there being any way to recover gracefully.
anonfordays 2y ago
[flagged]

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

> bill of rights only applies to citizens. I could argue that it’s inhumane, contradicts all the values US claims to stand for, or could be used as a back door to harass citizens. But ultimately fundamental issue is this - if you want to be a seat of global capital and finance, a global reserve currency and the worlds most important stock exchange, that is the price. Transnational corporations, their bosses and employees have to feel secure. That is the only reason (often corrupt) businessman take their money from Russia, China, and other regimes that do not guarantee human rights and bring it to the west.

hypeatei 2y ago
I think some are missing the sarcasm. I enjoyed your comment at least.

godelski 2y ago

> if you consider illegal immigrants as people Actually, I disagree[0]. The logic works just fine if you recognize that it is impossible to achieve 100% success rate. It is absolutely insane to me that on a website full of engineers people do not consider failure analysis when it comes to laws. Conditioned that you have not determined someone is an illegal immigrant: _______What do you want to happen here? _________________ Wait, sorry, let me use code for the deaf if (person.citizenStatus == illegal && person.citizenStatus in police.knowledge()) { deport(person, police) } else if (person.citizenStatus == illegal) { // What do you want to happen? // deport(person) returns error. There is no police to deport them } else if (person.citizenStatus == legal) { fullRights(person) } else if (person.citizenStatus == unknown { // Also a necessary question to answer // Do you want police randomly checking every person? That's expensive and a similar event helped create America as well as a very different Germany } else { // raise error, we shouldn't be here? } Am I missing something? Seems like you could be completely selfish, hate illegal immigrants, AND benefit through policies of Sanctuary Cities and giving them TINs. How is that last one even an argument? It's "free" money. EDIT: > the bill of rights only applies to citizens Just a note. This has been tested in courts and there's plenty of writings from the founders themselves, both of which would evidence that the rights are to everyone (the latter obviously influencing the former). It's not hard to guess why. See the "alternative solution" in my linked comment... It's about the `person.citizenStatus == unknown` case.... [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43796826 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43796826

throwawayqqq11 2y ago
This is full of flaws. After due process via courts, deportation is justified. So you need a big "if" before all of that. ICE is not the police. There should be no (broad) if-clause to grant rights. Unknown citizenship is not something you need to check for constantly, as you hinted.
- godelski 2y ago
  > After due process via courts, deportation is justified. Yes? >> if (person.citizenStatus == illegal && person.citizenStatus in police.knowledge()) { deport(person, police) After due process citizen status is in police knowledge, right? So they're illegal, ICE knows it, and our flow chart says... deport. Which condition do you believe is not satisfied? Do you believe the status of the person is not "illegal"? If so, why would we deport them? Or do you believe that the police are not aware of the person's citizenship status? If so how could we deport them? > ICE is not the police. Police (noun) [0] 1 a: the department of government concerned primarily with maintenance of public order, safety, and health and enforcement of laws and possessing executive, judicial, and legislative powers b: the department of government charged with prevention, detection, and prosecution of public nuisances and crimes United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement (aka ICE) [1] a federal law enforcement agency under the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. ICE is a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY, they are de facto "police." I think you are confusing the fact that "police" is a broad term and because it is less common to deal with federal law enforcement you have a higher frequency of hearing local law enforcement being referred to as "the police". But they both are. "Police" == "Law Enforcement" [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_Enforcement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Immigration_and_Customs_E...
  - crote 2y ago
    You're assuming that `police.knowledge` is sourced from an infallible oracle, and that the code is being executed by a fully trustworthy party. This isn't the case in practice. You need a giant try-catch around the whole thing, with the person being targeted being able to trigger an exception and force a re-evaluation at any point. That's what the basic human rights are for - placing those deep inside a nested if-statement is going to mean your code will horribly crash and burn, without there being any way to recover gracefully.

anonfordays 2y ago

[flagged]