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ICE has absolutely no business in state courthouses. The federal interest in enforcing immigration law should not be placed above the state's interest in enforc

ICE has absolutely no business in state courthouses. The federal interest in enforcing immigration law should not be placed above the state's interest in enforcing equal protection under the law. Consider the case of a undocumented rape victim. Do they not deserve justice? Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported? I think not and I do not want to live in that society.

kstrauser 1y ago
Nailed it. Keep that stuff away from: * Police interactions, unless you want people refusing to cooperate with police. * Hospitals, unless you want people refusing to seek medical care for communicable diseases. * Courtrooms, unless you want people to skip court or refuse to testify as witnesses. My wife likes watching murder investigation TV shows. Sometimes the homicide detectives will talk to petty criminals like street-level drug dealers, prostitutes, and the like. The first thing the detectives do is assure them that they're there about a murder and couldn't care less about the other minor stuff. They're not going to arrest some guy selling weed when they want to hear his story about something he witnessed. Well, same thing here but on a bigger stage.
- morkalork 1y ago
  Except that's TV and police often nail petty criminals for petty crimes in the process of larger investigations and they wonder why they get so little public support and cooperation.
- FreebasingLLMs 1y ago
  [dead]
thrance 1y ago
A sane argument against an insane position. Republicans are perfectly fine with unpunished violence against non-citizens. No wonder tourism is sharply declining.
lliamander 1y ago
[flagged]
- cactacea 1y ago
  You have completely missed the point of my comment.
  - lliamander 1y ago
    No, you made up a hypothetical scenario that was highly sympathetic to your position. I am saying that we should not let edge cases (real or hypothetical) dictate general policy on how we handle immigration law enforcement, and that any outrage we feel at the tragedies that result from such enforcement should be directed toward the people that allowed these situations to develop in the first place.
- km144 1y ago
  Your point does not engage with the question raised in the comment you're replying to. Would you like to live in a society where criminal justice is secondary to immigration enforcement? One where we deport people with acute conditions without treatment because they are not authorized to live in this country? Dealing with the "root cause" does not require inflicting unnecessary cruelty upon other human beings. > it has now rendered the fate of all of those people subject to the whims of whomever is in power. Who is in power? What does our Constitution say? The executive branch is not granted absolute authority over immigration policy and the treatment of humans—citizens or otherwise. That is a Constitutional crisis.
  - lliamander 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - mulmen 1y ago
      This is whataboutism and not only is it not persuasive it’s also off putting.
timewizard 1y ago
> Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported? That's not an actual outcome that would occur. Cases can proceed if the victim is unavailable. Do we let a rapist off because their victim had an untimely death? Obviously not. In the case of a deportee, if we have a sworn statement from them, or can remotely depose them, then their testimony would be included in the trial.
- mulmen 1y ago
  > In the case of a deportee, if we have a sworn statement from them, or can remotely depose them, then their testimony would be included in the trial. In a world where we deport people without due process to subcontracted megaprisons in El Salvador “if” is doing a lot of work.
- mrguyorama 1y ago
  In the real world, cases die all the time because the victim refuses to cooperate with the police. This is the point of things like immunity, and laws against witness tampering, and why the Mafia spent so much effort ensuring you knew you would die if you took the stand.
  - timewizard 1y ago
    > the victim refuses to cooperate You're describing an entirely different situation. Unless you're saying that deporting someone makes them wholly unable to participate in the process which is what I'm precisely disagreeing with. Cooperating can include things like simply filling out an affidavit or participating in remote depositions. > and why the Mafia spent so much effort ensuring you knew you would die if you took the stand. Removing someone from the country does not kill them.
s1artibartfast 1y ago
Consider the case of an arrest warrant for a rapist. Can it not be served at a courthouse? What if a judge smuggled them out a private door after being informed of the arrest warrant. Edit: the charge isn't for refusing to enforce. It's for smuggling someone out in attempt to actively impede their arrest.
- tmiku 1y ago
  You're missing the point - a rapist would have a criminal arrest warrant, which would absolutely be the courthouse's responsibility to enforce. The ICE agents attempted to disrupt a criminal proceeding to enforce a civil immigration warrant not signed by a judge. More on that distinction here: https://www.fletc.gov/ice-administrative-removal-warrants-mp3 https://www.fletc.gov/ice-administrative-removal-warrants-mp...
  - dmix 1y ago
    The court hallways are considered public property so it's basically a debate on cultural semantics, not a legal one. The federal gov probably has inventive to not deter people showing up at state courts. But the federal gov is also pretty notorious for caring more about their own cases than the potential issues created for other levels of government.
Hojojo 1y ago
[flagged]
- spacemadness 1y ago
  People are quibbling without understanding what kind of warrant it was even. They just read “warrant” or are using it in bad faith. We have a lot of bad faith arguers on HN due to it being a public forum. If you check their post history it’s very apparent.
nonethewiser 1y ago
State court houses are public. They arrested him in public. Why are state courthouses trying to protect illegal aliens?
nonethewiser 1y ago
State court houses are public. They arrested him in public. Why are state courthouses trying to protect illegal aliens? Ones that are being tried for battery no less.

kstrauser 1y ago

Nailed it. Keep that stuff away from: * Police interactions, unless you want people refusing to cooperate with police. * Hospitals, unless you want people refusing to seek medical care for communicable diseases. * Courtrooms, unless you want people to skip court or refuse to testify as witnesses. My wife likes watching murder investigation TV shows. Sometimes the homicide detectives will talk to petty criminals like street-level drug dealers, prostitutes, and the like. The first thing the detectives do is assure them that they're there about a murder and couldn't care less about the other minor stuff. They're not going to arrest some guy selling weed when they want to hear his story about something he witnessed. Well, same thing here but on a bigger stage.

morkalork 1y ago
Except that's TV and police often nail petty criminals for petty crimes in the process of larger investigations and they wonder why they get so little public support and cooperation.
FreebasingLLMs 1y ago
[dead]

thrance 1y ago

A sane argument against an insane position. Republicans are perfectly fine with unpunished violence against non-citizens. No wonder tourism is sharply declining.

lliamander 1y ago

[flagged]

cactacea 1y ago
You have completely missed the point of my comment.
- lliamander 1y ago
  No, you made up a hypothetical scenario that was highly sympathetic to your position. I am saying that we should not let edge cases (real or hypothetical) dictate general policy on how we handle immigration law enforcement, and that any outrage we feel at the tragedies that result from such enforcement should be directed toward the people that allowed these situations to develop in the first place.
km144 1y ago
Your point does not engage with the question raised in the comment you're replying to. Would you like to live in a society where criminal justice is secondary to immigration enforcement? One where we deport people with acute conditions without treatment because they are not authorized to live in this country? Dealing with the "root cause" does not require inflicting unnecessary cruelty upon other human beings. > it has now rendered the fate of all of those people subject to the whims of whomever is in power. Who is in power? What does our Constitution say? The executive branch is not granted absolute authority over immigration policy and the treatment of humans—citizens or otherwise. That is a Constitutional crisis.
- lliamander 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mulmen 1y ago
    This is whataboutism and not only is it not persuasive it’s also off putting.

timewizard 1y ago

> Are we better off letting a rapist go free when their victim cannot testify against them because they were deported? That's not an actual outcome that would occur. Cases can proceed if the victim is unavailable. Do we let a rapist off because their victim had an untimely death? Obviously not. In the case of a deportee, if we have a sworn statement from them, or can remotely depose them, then their testimony would be included in the trial.

mulmen 1y ago
> In the case of a deportee, if we have a sworn statement from them, or can remotely depose them, then their testimony would be included in the trial. In a world where we deport people without due process to subcontracted megaprisons in El Salvador “if” is doing a lot of work.
mrguyorama 1y ago
In the real world, cases die all the time because the victim refuses to cooperate with the police. This is the point of things like immunity, and laws against witness tampering, and why the Mafia spent so much effort ensuring you knew you would die if you took the stand.
- timewizard 1y ago
  > the victim refuses to cooperate You're describing an entirely different situation. Unless you're saying that deporting someone makes them wholly unable to participate in the process which is what I'm precisely disagreeing with. Cooperating can include things like simply filling out an affidavit or participating in remote depositions. > and why the Mafia spent so much effort ensuring you knew you would die if you took the stand. Removing someone from the country does not kill them.

s1artibartfast 1y ago

Consider the case of an arrest warrant for a rapist. Can it not be served at a courthouse? What if a judge smuggled them out a private door after being informed of the arrest warrant. Edit: the charge isn't for refusing to enforce. It's for smuggling someone out in attempt to actively impede their arrest.

tmiku 1y ago
You're missing the point - a rapist would have a criminal arrest warrant, which would absolutely be the courthouse's responsibility to enforce. The ICE agents attempted to disrupt a criminal proceeding to enforce a civil immigration warrant not signed by a judge. More on that distinction here: https://www.fletc.gov/ice-administrative-removal-warrants-mp3 https://www.fletc.gov/ice-administrative-removal-warrants-mp...
- dmix 1y ago
  The court hallways are considered public property so it's basically a debate on cultural semantics, not a legal one. The federal gov probably has inventive to not deter people showing up at state courts. But the federal gov is also pretty notorious for caring more about their own cases than the potential issues created for other levels of government.

Hojojo 1y ago

[flagged]

spacemadness 1y ago
People are quibbling without understanding what kind of warrant it was even. They just read “warrant” or are using it in bad faith. We have a lot of bad faith arguers on HN due to it being a public forum. If you check their post history it’s very apparent.

nonethewiser 1y ago

State court houses are public. They arrested him in public. Why are state courthouses trying to protect illegal aliens?

nonethewiser 1y ago

State court houses are public. They arrested him in public. Why are state courthouses trying to protect illegal aliens? Ones that are being tried for battery no less.