4 ms·

How much does it cost? I'm just curious. No, I don't want to book a meeting to "discuss" it.

zcdziura 1y ago
If you have to ask, you can't afford it!
tw04 1y ago
You don't buy a mainframe, it's consumption based pricing. They aren't just going to list a price, because they need to size the hardware to what they think the workload will be. Could they just list prices? Sure. Will they ever do it? No.
pickle-wizard 1y ago
I haven't worked with mainframes since the z10, but back then you could get into an entry model for about $100k. Though the sky is the limit. The typical machine I would order had a list price of about 1 million. Of course no one pays list. Discounts can be pretty substantial depending on how much business you do with IBM or how bad they want to get your business.
gosub100 1y ago
It's probably impossible to say because of the service contracts that come with it. Nobody would buy one brand new and not pay for support and consulting too.
- rbanffy 1y ago
  Accounting is a key aspect as well. A lot of would-be capex that turns into opex that way.
NelsonMinar 1y ago
You can get a software emulator for free and run it on a PC! It's quite robust and used by IBM's own developers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(emulator) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(emulator)
- racingmars 1y ago
  Hercules is _not_ used by IBM's own developers. Being found with Hercules on your computer at IBM gets you in trouble. I know people who work on mainframe-related stuff inside IBM and they steer well clear of Hercules. And I've heard that IBM's computer monitoring stuff (antivirus, asset protection, etc.) looks for Hercules and flags it. But IBM _does_ have their own mainframe emulator, zPDT (z Personal Development Tool), sold to their customers for dev and testing (under the name zD&T -- z Development and Test), and to ISVs under their ISV program. That's what IBM's own developers would be using if they're doing stuff under emulation instead of LPARs on real hardware. (And IBM's emulator is significantly faster than Hercules, FWIW, but overall less feature-full and lacks all of the support Hercules has for older architectures, more device types, etc.)
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - rbanffy 1y ago
    > looks for Hercules and flags it. There was some of a legal fight between IBM and Turbo Hercules SSA, a company that tried to force IBM to license z/OS to their users. IBM has been holding a grudge ever since (probably at the advice of their legal).
- ThinkBeat 1y ago
  You can run the emulator but you will not get your hands on new versions of the operating system to run on it. But there are old versions that you can get your hand on.
  - rbanffy 1y ago
    You might be able to get your hands on a recent z/OS, but IBM will not be pleased.
timewizard 1y ago
It depends on how full those drawers are. $250k to $1m would be the typical price range. It's easier and harder at the same time to buy older hardware. That's half the challenge though because the software is strictly licensed and you pay per MIPS. Here's a kid who bought a mainframe and then brought it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk
mattbaker 1y ago
I think leasing is more common.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
bigbuppo 1y ago
The big problem is that everything in IBM-z world is negotiated, and often covered by NDAs. The pricing is complicated by which operating systems and what sort of workloads you'll be running, and what service level guarantees you need. The only published pricing in the entire life of the IBM 360/370/390/z-series line was the Linux One when it was first released... Hardware plus OS, excluding storage, was $70k on the low end. Previous generation machines that came off-lease used to be listed on IBM's web site. You could have a fully-maxed-out previous-generation machine for under $250k. Fifteen years ago I was able to get ballpark pricing for a fully-maxed-out new machine, and it was "over a million, but less than two million, and closer to the low end". That being said, the machines are often leased. If you go with z/vm or z/vse, the OS and softare is typically sold under terms that are pretty much like normal software, except it varies depending on the capacity level of the machine, which may be less than the physical number of CPUs in the machine, since that is a thing in IBM-land. If you go for z/os, welcome to the world of metered billing. You're looking at tens of thousands of dollars in MRC just to get started, and if you're running the exact wrong mix of everything, you'll be spending millions just on software each month. There's a whole industry that revolves around managing these expenses. Still less complicated than The Cloud.
rbanffy 1y ago
A Rockhopper 4 Express starts at $135,000. While technically a mainframe, it won't run z/OS.
- LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
  It runs Linux, so it can run Hercules (multiple times), so one could run the older versions at blazing speeds in parallel (sysplex even?)!1!! (SCNR)

If you have to ask, you can't afford it!

tw04 1y ago

You don't buy a mainframe, it's consumption based pricing. They aren't just going to list a price, because they need to size the hardware to what they think the workload will be. Could they just list prices? Sure. Will they ever do it? No.

pickle-wizard 1y ago

I haven't worked with mainframes since the z10, but back then you could get into an entry model for about $100k. Though the sky is the limit. The typical machine I would order had a list price of about 1 million. Of course no one pays list. Discounts can be pretty substantial depending on how much business you do with IBM or how bad they want to get your business.

gosub100 1y ago

It's probably impossible to say because of the service contracts that come with it. Nobody would buy one brand new and not pay for support and consulting too.

rbanffy 1y ago
Accounting is a key aspect as well. A lot of would-be capex that turns into opex that way.

NelsonMinar 1y ago

You can get a software emulator for free and run it on a PC! It's quite robust and used by IBM's own developers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(emulator) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_(emulator)

racingmars 1y ago
Hercules is _not_ used by IBM's own developers. Being found with Hercules on your computer at IBM gets you in trouble. I know people who work on mainframe-related stuff inside IBM and they steer well clear of Hercules. And I've heard that IBM's computer monitoring stuff (antivirus, asset protection, etc.) looks for Hercules and flags it. But IBM _does_ have their own mainframe emulator, zPDT (z Personal Development Tool), sold to their customers for dev and testing (under the name zD&T -- z Development and Test), and to ISVs under their ISV program. That's what IBM's own developers would be using if they're doing stuff under emulation instead of LPARs on real hardware. (And IBM's emulator is significantly faster than Hercules, FWIW, but overall less feature-full and lacks all of the support Hercules has for older architectures, more device types, etc.)
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- rbanffy 1y ago
  > looks for Hercules and flags it. There was some of a legal fight between IBM and Turbo Hercules SSA, a company that tried to force IBM to license z/OS to their users. IBM has been holding a grudge ever since (probably at the advice of their legal).
ThinkBeat 1y ago
You can run the emulator but you will not get your hands on new versions of the operating system to run on it. But there are old versions that you can get your hand on.
- rbanffy 1y ago
  You might be able to get your hands on a recent z/OS, but IBM will not be pleased.

timewizard 1y ago

It depends on how full those drawers are. $250k to $1m would be the typical price range. It's easier and harder at the same time to buy older hardware. That's half the challenge though because the software is strictly licensed and you pay per MIPS. Here's a kid who bought a mainframe and then brought it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk

mattbaker 1y ago

I think leasing is more common.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

bigbuppo 1y ago

The big problem is that everything in IBM-z world is negotiated, and often covered by NDAs. The pricing is complicated by which operating systems and what sort of workloads you'll be running, and what service level guarantees you need. The only published pricing in the entire life of the IBM 360/370/390/z-series line was the Linux One when it was first released... Hardware plus OS, excluding storage, was $70k on the low end. Previous generation machines that came off-lease used to be listed on IBM's web site. You could have a fully-maxed-out previous-generation machine for under $250k. Fifteen years ago I was able to get ballpark pricing for a fully-maxed-out new machine, and it was "over a million, but less than two million, and closer to the low end". That being said, the machines are often leased. If you go with z/vm or z/vse, the OS and softare is typically sold under terms that are pretty much like normal software, except it varies depending on the capacity level of the machine, which may be less than the physical number of CPUs in the machine, since that is a thing in IBM-land. If you go for z/os, welcome to the world of metered billing. You're looking at tens of thousands of dollars in MRC just to get started, and if you're running the exact wrong mix of everything, you'll be spending millions just on software each month. There's a whole industry that revolves around managing these expenses. Still less complicated than The Cloud.

rbanffy 1y ago

A Rockhopper 4 Express starts at $135,000. While technically a mainframe, it won't run z/OS.

LargoLasskhyfv 1y ago
It runs Linux, so it can run Hercules (multiple times), so one could run the older versions at blazing speeds in parallel (sysplex even?)!1!! (SCNR)